- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Nevin Lyne

On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

MICE Port Fees

by Jeremy Lumby

I have spent some more time thinking about MICE fees, and have come up with a few more ideas. The more I think about it, I can see how donations to MICE can easily be expected to cover one time hardware costs. However there are recurring costs that I do not foresee donations being able to keep up with for the long term. I estimate that if you did not account for donations towards recurring costs, MICE would have about $9000/year in expenses. This includes space/power/ARIN fees for it's own IP addresses. Based upon the current membership, this would be approx $30 per month per member. I am sure that most members would opt to pay quarterly, or biannually based on the small size of the bill. I am sure that automated electronic invoices could be setup to reduce the administrative billing load. While I do agree that Free is a simple marketing tool, when I have mentioned that MICE is free to some larger ISPs that I do business with, the first thing that I have heard back on several occasions is along the lines of how reliable can it actually be if nothing other than donations is going into maintenance of the exchange. On the other hand I realize that for the small provider, Free can be a huge marketing tool. This leads me to ponder an article I saw on the news a few years back. They were talking about a restaurant that did a social experiment where when the register rang up the total for the food ordered, it was listed as a suggested value. The customer then had the option to pay what they wanted (or not pay at all). The results after several months of operation was that the over payment cancelled out the underpayment, and the restaurant remained in financial good standing. I feel it is very possible that in-between a suggested monthly value of connecting to MICE, along with the traffic graphs to provide a visual value that most members would want to pay on their own, within a month or two, most members will realize the value, and start to contribute. MICE also has the luxury of a couple of years before the recurring expense donations run out, where something like this could be tried out, and any extra could be saved up so that if mandatory fees did need to be assessed in the future, they would not be so shocking to some members right out of the gate. Jeremy Lumby Minnesota VoIP 9217 17th Ave S Suite 216 Bloomington, MN 55425 Main: 612-355-7740 Direct: 612-392-6814 E-Fax: 952-873-7425 jlumby(a)mnvoip.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

MICE Bylaws/Member control agreement

by Jay Hanke

We had an offer from a telecom attorney here in Mankato to draft the bylaws and member control agreement for MICE for $500. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by Jay Hanke

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of > Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if > it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone > point it out to me? > > I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. That's correct, Akamai hasn't put the MICE cluster in service. We need a blessing from inspector 12 and I think they have a scheduled window when they bring them in service. Marty, any idea on schedule for activation? Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

On Oct 12, 2011, at 10:09 PM, Doug McIntyre wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 09:03:07PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: >> Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. > > FWIW: That is one of the first "features" I turn off in Cisco configs.. > Sure, but, no ip domain-lookup solves that and so many other problems all at once. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Doug McIntyre

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 09:03:07PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: > Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. FWIW: That is one of the first "features" I turn off in Cisco configs.. -- Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by Doug McIntyre

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=107… Seems pretty lonely there at 10kbps. (I confirmed that this port is the MAC that we're feeding the Akamai BGP session down to, so I'm pretty sure the documentation is correct), and a port monitor shows traffic at the same levels the graph is doing. FWIW: Our own (ipHouse) Akamai cluster saw about a five-fold increase in traffic over normal peak levels starting just before 13:00 CDT (when Apple let loose the gates). Not quite the same levels as the poster in NANOG. You could also look at the GigaPop 10G feed and see increased traffic tonight.. http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=148… That traffic is mostly the U of MN's Akamai cluster IIRC. Looks like some peak usage tonight, although not so much of a blip during the daytime. -- Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Frank Bulk

Thanks for all the feedback -- it's as split as I anticipated. =) -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Steve Howard Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:38 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found humor in it. > I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... > > I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... > > Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. > > I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) > > Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. > > That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no valid PTR record. > Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE members or the internet community. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

> >> Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR >> records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a >> while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't >> slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays >> the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several >> seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain >> timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really >> slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. > > A) if the DNS server is operational but without PTR records, it will > return immediately. > It is not unusual for the DNS server somewhere in the chain to be non-operational. Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. > B) if they are lame delegations then the provider should fix it and > not leave it broken. > In an ideal world, yes, but, not a big help when you're trying to troubleshoot something and usually outside of the control of the person doing the traceroute. > C) 5ms is always faster than 2 seconds to copy, change 'windows', > click your edit box, paste, return (or click submit). Or if you are > me, I'd queue up a dig or nslookup in a window then play the copy and > paste game and hit return - no finding the edit box, and the time > wasted will still be wasted. > True, but, the DNS timeout I experience from these issues is usually more like 30-90s and 2s is always faster than 30s or more. > Why your opinion MUST override mine baffles me. > I can't speak for the other guy, but, I'm trying to discuss the issues and ignore the personal offense/attacks and bickering. I'm not saying my opinion or experience should override yours. Just pointing out the issues from my experience with the mechanisms and reasoning you have put forth. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Akamai traffic

by Frank Bulk

There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? Frank ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011