- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: MICE UG 6 Sponsor!

by Jay Hanke

The meeting is usually fairly short 45 minutes or so. Make sure to allow time afterwards for the social, that's the good part. IIRC, the social breaks up before 6:30 or 7ish. On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:21 AM, Reid Fishler <rfishler(a)he.net> wrote: > What time should this meeting end? I am trying to make the last flight back > to NY... > > Reid > > On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net>wrote: > >> A special thanks to FWR has volunteered to sponsor MICE UG 6! >> >> Here is the info for the meeting >> >> MICE UG 6- Throwback Meeting at Grumpy's November 9th, 2011 starting at >> 3:00pm >> >> Volunteering makes MICE work. If you or your company is looking for a >> way to contribute here is a partial list. >> >> -Donate money for our own IPv4 and IPv6 addresses from ARIN, we only >> have one year left on our existing address space >> -Legal- The Steering Committee needs help writing the bylaws. >> -Harass your upstream provider (or any provider you know for that >> matter) to connect to MICE >> -Fill out your PeeringDB entry >> -Create a looking glass >> -Write a blog article about MICE. >> -Do something not on the list. >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: >> http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >> >> > > > -- > Reid Fishler > Director > Hurricane Electric > +1-510-580-4178 > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > -- Jay Hanke CTO, CCIE #19093 Mankato Networks LLC 619 S Front St Mankato, MN 56001-3838 Google 530-618-2398 jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net http://www.mankatonetworks.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 19, 2011

Re: MICE UG 6 Sponsor!

by Reid Fishler

What time should this meeting end? I am trying to make the last flight back to NY... Reid On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net>wrote: > A special thanks to FWR has volunteered to sponsor MICE UG 6! > > Here is the info for the meeting > > MICE UG 6- Throwback Meeting at Grumpy's November 9th, 2011 starting at > 3:00pm > > Volunteering makes MICE work. If you or your company is looking for a > way to contribute here is a partial list. > > -Donate money for our own IPv4 and IPv6 addresses from ARIN, we only > have one year left on our existing address space > -Legal- The Steering Committee needs help writing the bylaws. > -Harass your upstream provider (or any provider you know for that > matter) to connect to MICE > -Fill out your PeeringDB entry > -Create a looking glass > -Write a blog article about MICE. > -Do something not on the list. > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 19, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by James Stahr

At 05:03 PM 10/18/2011, you wrote: >This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's >"honey-do list" I wrote a script to parse stats >via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's excellent new >looking glass. I didn't see any commands that >would give the number of MICE peers, so that >number is actually the number of gateways in the >routing tables and of course the total number >of connected addresses is just for fun. If >anyone sees other numbers worth graphing let me >know. I also spent a little time on the >Weathermap, same username and password as before: ><http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/>http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/ > >Hopefully you'll all be more impressed than my wife was Nice work. My wife isn't impressed either, but I can impress my kids with graphs! One thing you could add would be this BGP Monitoring template - it baselines the # of prefixes for each BGP neighbor and then has additional lines for inbound/outbound updates. BGP Monitor - this one worked for me http://forums.cacti.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=36770&start=30 BGP - "broken" version - I couldn't get this one to work right, but you can see what it does http://crunchtools.com/software/crunchtools/cacti/grpah-bgp-neighbors/ Here's an example of the graphs produced from the BGP sessions on our MICE router: <http://www.elizabethandjames.com/temp/AS53679-bgp-monitor.png>http://www.elizabethandjames.com/temp/AS53679-bgp-monitor.png http://www.elizabethandjames.com/temp/AS6939-bgp-monitor.png -James ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 19, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by David Farmer

Both ASes directly peering and subsidiary customer ASes, or ASes transited to MICE, would be cool too. On 10/18/11 17:33 CDT, Owen DeLong wrote: > Might be worth counting unique ASNs as well. > > Owen > > Sent from my iPad > > On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:03 AM, Anthony Anderberg > <anthonyanderberg(a)NU-TELECOM.NET > <mailto:anthonyanderberg@NU-TELECOM.NET>> wrote: > >> This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's "honey-do list" I >> wrote a script to parse stats via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's >> excellent new looking glass. I didn't see any commands that would give >> the number of MICE peers, so that number is actually the number of >> gateways in the routing tables… and of course the total number of >> connected addresses is just for fun. If anyone sees other numbers >> worth graphing let me know. I also spent a little time on the >> Weathermap, same username and password as before: >> >> http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/ >> >> Hopefully you'll all be more impressed than my wife was… >> >> *Anthony Anderberg* >> >> Sr. Systems Analyst >> >> <image001.gif> >> >> 320-234-5239 >> >> anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net <mailto:anthonyanderberg@nu-telecom.net> >> >> _www.nutelecom.net <http://www.nutelecom.net>_ >> >> __ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: >> http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >> <http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > <http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1> > -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

Might be worth counting unique ASNs as well. Owen Sent from my iPad On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:03 AM, Anthony Anderberg <anthonyanderberg(a)NU-TELECOM.NET> wrote: > This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's "honey-do list" I wrote a script to parse stats via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's excellent new looking glass. I didn't see any commands that would give the number of MICE peers, so that number is actually the number of gateways in the routing tables… and of course the total number of connected addresses is just for fun. If anyone sees other numbers worth graphing let me know. I also spent a little time on the Weathermap, same username and password as before: > http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/ > > Hopefully you'll all be more impressed than my wife was… > > > Anthony Anderberg > Sr. Systems Analyst > <image001.gif> > 320-234-5239 > anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net > www.nutelecom.net > > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Richard Laager

On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 22:03 +0000, Anthony Anderberg wrote: > This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's "honey-do list" I > wrote a script to parse stats via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's > excellent new looking glass. Would you be willing to share those scripts? It seems like it could be useful to graph the number of routes received on my other peering sessions. Richard ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Jeremy Lumby

I appreciate the work, it is looking better all the time. Would it be possible to list the Mice Member's name on the individual graphs? The only other minor thing I could think of to clean things up is to remove the original MICE switch from Cacti since the switch is no longer in the rack. Thanks, Jeremy From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Anthony Anderberg Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:04 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's "honey-do list" I wrote a script to parse stats via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's excellent new looking glass. I didn't see any commands that would give the number of MICE peers, so that number is actually the number of gateways in the routing tables… and of course the total number of connected addresses is just for fun. If anyone sees other numbers worth graphing let me know. I also spent a little time on the Weathermap, same username and password as before: http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/ Hopefully you'll all be more impressed than my wife was… Anthony Anderberg Sr. Systems Analyst 320-234-5239 anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net www.nutelecom.net To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Anthony Anderberg

This weekend while diligently avoiding my wife's "honey-do list" I wrote a script to parse stats via telnet from Jeremy and Doug's excellent new looking glass. I didn't see any commands that would give the number of MICE peers, so that number is actually the number of gateways in the routing tables... and of course the total number of connected addresses is just for fun. If anyone sees other numbers worth graphing let me know. I also spent a little time on the Weathermap, same username and password as before: http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/ Hopefully you'll all be more impressed than my wife was... Anthony Anderberg Sr. Systems Analyst [NUtel_email_logo_1] 320-234-5239 anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net<mailto:anthonyanderberg@nu-telecom.net> www.nutelecom.net ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: MICE Akamai Traffic

by Hannigan, Martin

Looking forward to working together to make this succesful for all. Thanks so much for working with us. Best, -M< On 10/18/11 5:31 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: The new Akamai cluster has started to take some traffic. About 930 Mb/s as of 16:30. Thanks to everyone who contributed! Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

MICE Akamai Traffic

by Jay Hanke

The new Akamai cluster has started to take some traffic. About 930 Mb/s as of 16:30. Thanks to everyone who contributed! Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 18, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Ryan Goldberg

I like this best-of-both-worlds model. We are a teeny tiny and it was mildly challenging to make the biz case for joining. Now that we are in, the value has been demonstrated to my boss, and if we needed to drop $250/yr on it, no one would sneeze. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:52 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 14, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by David Farmer

The precise answer is probably yes, they will be two different nodes and will probably have somewhat different demand and therefore different cache profiles. But, it is my understanding that they will be more or less equivalent and have more or less access to the same content, so functionally they should be equivalent. FYI, the traffic profile you receive may change a little as the University's node is a bit over loaded right now especially during daytime hours. So, you may receive mor traffic once the MICE node comes online. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== On Oct 13, 2011, at 14:59, Mike Wilker <mwilker(a)JAGCOM.NET> wrote: > Is the Akamai cluster at MICE going to have any different content than the one at U of M? > > Mike Wilker > Chief Technical Officer > Jaguar Communications > 507-214-0259 > mwilker(a)jagcom.net > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? > > I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. > > http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=107… > > Seems pretty lonely there at 10kbps. (I confirmed that this port is > the MAC that we're feeding the Akamai BGP session down to, so I'm pretty > sure the documentation is correct), and a port monitor shows traffic > at the same levels the graph is doing. > > FWIW: Our own (ipHouse) Akamai cluster saw about a five-fold increase > in traffic over normal peak levels starting just before 13:00 CDT > (when Apple let loose the gates). Not quite the same levels as the > poster in NANOG. > > > You could also look at the GigaPop 10G feed and see increased traffic tonight.. > > http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=148… > > That traffic is mostly the U of MN's Akamai cluster IIRC. Looks like > some peak usage tonight, although not so much of a blip during the > daytime. > > > -- > Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> > -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- > Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Mike Horwath

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 03:11:00PM -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote: > I like this idea as the best one yet!!! I second this emotion. To ruin everyone's afternoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kCPj8 you're welcome... -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jeremy Lumby

I like this idea as the best one yet!!! -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:52 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by Mike Wilker

Is the Akamai cluster at MICE going to have any different content than the one at U of M? Mike Wilker Chief Technical Officer Jaguar Communications 507-214-0259 mwilker(a)jagcom.net On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of > Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if > it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone > point it out to me? > > I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. > > > http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=107… > > Seems pretty lonely there at 10kbps. (I confirmed that this port is > the MAC that we're feeding the Akamai BGP session down to, so I'm pretty > sure the documentation is correct), and a port monitor shows traffic > at the same levels the graph is doing. > > FWIW: Our own (ipHouse) Akamai cluster saw about a five-fold increase > in traffic over normal peak levels starting just before 13:00 CDT > (when Apple let loose the gates). Not quite the same levels as the > poster in NANOG. > > > You could also look at the GigaPop 10G feed and see increased traffic > tonight.. > > > http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=148… > > That traffic is mostly the U of MN's Akamai cluster IIRC. Looks like > some peak usage tonight, although not so much of a blip during the > daytime. > > > -- > Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> > -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- > Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Nevin Lyne

On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

MICE Port Fees

by Jeremy Lumby

I have spent some more time thinking about MICE fees, and have come up with a few more ideas. The more I think about it, I can see how donations to MICE can easily be expected to cover one time hardware costs. However there are recurring costs that I do not foresee donations being able to keep up with for the long term. I estimate that if you did not account for donations towards recurring costs, MICE would have about $9000/year in expenses. This includes space/power/ARIN fees for it's own IP addresses. Based upon the current membership, this would be approx $30 per month per member. I am sure that most members would opt to pay quarterly, or biannually based on the small size of the bill. I am sure that automated electronic invoices could be setup to reduce the administrative billing load. While I do agree that Free is a simple marketing tool, when I have mentioned that MICE is free to some larger ISPs that I do business with, the first thing that I have heard back on several occasions is along the lines of how reliable can it actually be if nothing other than donations is going into maintenance of the exchange. On the other hand I realize that for the small provider, Free can be a huge marketing tool. This leads me to ponder an article I saw on the news a few years back. They were talking about a restaurant that did a social experiment where when the register rang up the total for the food ordered, it was listed as a suggested value. The customer then had the option to pay what they wanted (or not pay at all). The results after several months of operation was that the over payment cancelled out the underpayment, and the restaurant remained in financial good standing. I feel it is very possible that in-between a suggested monthly value of connecting to MICE, along with the traffic graphs to provide a visual value that most members would want to pay on their own, within a month or two, most members will realize the value, and start to contribute. MICE also has the luxury of a couple of years before the recurring expense donations run out, where something like this could be tried out, and any extra could be saved up so that if mandatory fees did need to be assessed in the future, they would not be so shocking to some members right out of the gate. Jeremy Lumby Minnesota VoIP 9217 17th Ave S Suite 216 Bloomington, MN 55425 Main: 612-355-7740 Direct: 612-392-6814 E-Fax: 952-873-7425 jlumby(a)mnvoip.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

MICE Bylaws/Member control agreement

by Jay Hanke

We had an offer from a telecom attorney here in Mankato to draft the bylaws and member control agreement for MICE for $500. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by Jay Hanke

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of > Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if > it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone > point it out to me? > > I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. That's correct, Akamai hasn't put the MICE cluster in service. We need a blessing from inspector 12 and I think they have a scheduled window when they bring them in service. Marty, any idea on schedule for activation? Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

On Oct 12, 2011, at 10:09 PM, Doug McIntyre wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 09:03:07PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: >> Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. > > FWIW: That is one of the first "features" I turn off in Cisco configs.. > Sure, but, no ip domain-lookup solves that and so many other problems all at once. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Doug McIntyre

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 09:03:07PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: > Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. FWIW: That is one of the first "features" I turn off in Cisco configs.. -- Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: Akamai traffic

by Doug McIntyre

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:01:15PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote: > There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? I don't think the MICE Akamai is ready to go yet. http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=107… Seems pretty lonely there at 10kbps. (I confirmed that this port is the MAC that we're feeding the Akamai BGP session down to, so I'm pretty sure the documentation is correct), and a port monitor shows traffic at the same levels the graph is doing. FWIW: Our own (ipHouse) Akamai cluster saw about a five-fold increase in traffic over normal peak levels starting just before 13:00 CDT (when Apple let loose the gates). Not quite the same levels as the poster in NANOG. You could also look at the GigaPop 10G feed and see increased traffic tonight.. http://micelg.usinternet.com/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=148… That traffic is mostly the U of MN's Akamai cluster IIRC. Looks like some peak usage tonight, although not so much of a blip during the daytime. -- Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> -- ipHouse/Goldengate/Bitstream/ProNS -- Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Frank Bulk

Thanks for all the feedback -- it's as split as I anticipated. =) -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Steve Howard Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:38 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found humor in it. > I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... > > I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... > > Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. > > I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) > > Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. > > That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no valid PTR record. > Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE members or the internet community. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

> >> Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR >> records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a >> while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't >> slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays >> the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several >> seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain >> timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really >> slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. > > A) if the DNS server is operational but without PTR records, it will > return immediately. > It is not unusual for the DNS server somewhere in the chain to be non-operational. Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. > B) if they are lame delegations then the provider should fix it and > not leave it broken. > In an ideal world, yes, but, not a big help when you're trying to troubleshoot something and usually outside of the control of the person doing the traceroute. > C) 5ms is always faster than 2 seconds to copy, change 'windows', > click your edit box, paste, return (or click submit). Or if you are > me, I'd queue up a dig or nslookup in a window then play the copy and > paste game and hit return - no finding the edit box, and the time > wasted will still be wasted. > True, but, the DNS timeout I experience from these issues is usually more like 30-90s and 2s is always faster than 30s or more. > Why your opinion MUST override mine baffles me. > I can't speak for the other guy, but, I'm trying to discuss the issues and ignore the personal offense/attacks and bickering. I'm not saying my opinion or experience should override yours. Just pointing out the issues from my experience with the mechanisms and reasoning you have put forth. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Akamai traffic

by Frank Bulk

There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? Frank ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Owen DeLong

Personally, I'd vote for annual or quarterly rather than monthly in order to reduce the overhead in administering the fee collection process. In general, I think there are both startup and recurring costs that MICE incurs per connection. I would, therefore, suggest that we have an install and an periodic charge. Owen On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Jeremy Lumby wrote: > Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members? Something like $25/month for 1 Gig and $100/mo for 10Gig plus the one time cost of optics. If members do not want to take on these fees, they could possibly do some kind of donation of time, such as doing port moves/adds/changes. I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated, and some limits would need to be set (such as if a bunch of people wanted to do it, they would only be able to do so for a limited amount of time to allow others to have a chance as well). I can foresee a time when the recurring funds will need to be built up to purchase additional switches, pay for IP blocks directly from ARIN, and replace failed/old switches/route servers. I know that the donation of space, and power from FWR had a time limit on it, and those recurring costs will be coming up as well. I feel now is the time to plan ahead/save up some extra money so when those donations run out the exchange will not hit a brick wall with members that would be sticker shocked by how much it would take to keep it going. I think a little bit from every member over the years will add up to quite a bit by the time that some major expenses hit the exchange. By that point in time, I think small adjustments if any in the monthly fee would be much easier to swallow for the members. I think that anyone that realizes the value of the exchange would gladly pay to stay connected. I am sure that the recurring fees would never need to be more than the cost of the cross connect which we are already gladly paying for, and the more people that join, the higher the value of the exchange, and the smaller the cost on a per member basis. I do not think that the marketing of the exchange needs to be that it is of little to no cost, I believe it can be marketed as us sharing our knowledge of the benefits of the exchange with potential members, as well as making sure that they realize that the exchange exists. > > From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:45 PM > To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET > Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees > > > What is the funding model of the exchange now? > > I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) > > That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. > > Thanks, > > Jay > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Mike Horwath

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:37:52AM -0500, Steve Howard wrote: > On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. > > It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm > sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found > humor in it. I never said it was insignificant. You look for offense and you will find it. My opinion is that this is an over-optimization that leads to wasted time in other ways. Just my opinion; I am not setting any policies for MICE on this. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR > records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a > while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't > slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays > the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several > seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain > timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really > slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. A) if the DNS server is operational but without PTR records, it will return immediately. B) if they are lame delegations then the provider should fix it and not leave it broken. C) 5ms is always faster than 2 seconds to copy, change 'windows', click your edit box, paste, return (or click submit). Or if you are me, I'd queue up a dig or nslookup in a window then play the copy and paste game and hit return - no finding the edit box, and the time wasted will still be wasted. Why your opinion MUST override mine baffles me. > I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup > properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. I live in the real world, since 1990 when I joined the Internet, since 1993 when I fired up my first real ISP server with Doug one very late night. I ain't no fresh kid on this block. > > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. > Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no > valid PTR record. See results A and B above, one causes no issues, one needs to be fixed. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of > the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular > industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE > members or the internet community. No one said MICE had to abide by my rules and thought processes. If it did - we would have started charging for ports on day one as was discussed that very first day. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Hannigan, Martin

You need money to run the exchange. As long as there is benefit over transit or some financial basis with other reasons like reliability or performance, charging is perfectly reasonable. I’m on the board of two other not for profit IX’s and we are growing rapidly and we charge. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 8:46 PM, "Reid Fishler" <rfishler(a)HE.NET> wrote: I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)iphouse.net> wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote: > Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps > running it with a board elected by members (annual membership > dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. > This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and > encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in > the organization. There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Hannigan, Martin

Well, I haven't had a chance to pay them yet, but I will. :) I’ve been at NANOG+ARIN meeting in Philadelphia. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 4:44 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: What is the funding model of the exchange now? I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler(a)he.net> wrote: > I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want > people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more > value than more ASNs? The problem is one of bandwidth. Sometimes the donations come in really easy, sometimes they are a LOT of work. I would LOVE for someone to take over the money/contracts side so I could focus on membership... Maybe someone on the steering committee ;) Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

> > > There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever > put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? > > Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. > > I'm currently the MICE god (LLC organizer) until the agreements are formalized. When some business comes up, the steering committee votes and then I execute the contract or whatever. I believe the SC and membership are in basic agreement but it needs to be written down. We REALLY need a participant with in-house legal or lawyer buddy to donate an afternoon. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Reid Fishler

I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote: > > Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps > > running it with a board elected by members (annual membership > > dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. > > This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and > > encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in > > the organization. > > There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever > put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? > > Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. > > -- > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Mike Horwath

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote: > Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps > running it with a board elected by members (annual membership > dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. > This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and > encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in > the organization. There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Matthew Beckwell

+1 Never under-estimate the power of free. "Billing" has it's own overhead, which is probably more trouble than it's worth for small, frequent amounts. ~Matthew On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Steve Howard wrote: > MICE is still a very small exchange. I am concerned that fees may > discourage new members. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Steve Howard

On 10/12/2011 03:30 PM, Jay Hanke wrote: > I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time > fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. > > Perhaps something like: > 1G $250 (+optic) > 10G $1500 (+optic) > > We would use the money to operate the exchange. > MICE is still a very small exchange. I am concerned that fees may discourage new members. I think that it is easy to encourage people to join when it is free. When it costs money things get harder. When it costs money on a recurring basis, it gets even harder still. Small one-time fees don't seem unreasonable to me. Have we ever had problems getting donations? Are we trying to fix something that isn't broken. The end result could be that we end up with fewer members which results in less value for everybody. Steve ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: Participants List Web Page

by Mike Tindle

> Is Hurricane Electric still planning to upgrade to 10Gig? I see they > have both 1Gig and 10Gig ports assigned. Yep, we're working on it. Hopefully moved to 10g in a few days here. Mike On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Richard Laager wrote: > The participants.html web page is out-of-date. Given this is a > volunteer-run exchange, I've done a bunch of updating work myself. (See > the attachment.) I believe I have everything current and complete, > except as noted below. > > This originally started because I wanted looking glass addresses listed. > I've since changed my thinking on that. If you list a looking glass in > your peeringdb.com entry, bgp.he.net (to which we already link) picks > that up automatically. This saves us from having to maintain that data > on the MICE participants page. > > Accordingly, I'd like to urge Visi to create a peeringdb.com record and > list their Looking Glass URL. (No shaming implied... I don't have a > looking glass running... yet.) > > Should the MICE AS have a peeringdb.com entry? We could list the route > server there, for the same reason. > > Is there value in linking to the respective peeringdb.com links? If so, > should the anchor text be the carrier's name, or a new column? > > We are still missing contacts for these networks: > South Dakota Networks > Dakota Carrier Network > Northern Lights GigaPoP > Compudyne > MyTelepath > Genesis Wireless/RevNetData > Jaguar Communications > NU Telecom > > Dakota Carrier Network was assigned two IPv4 addresses, but only one > IPv6 address. I assume the IPv6 assignment was an oversight. > > Is Hurricane Electric still planning to upgrade to 10Gig? I see they > have both 1Gig and 10Gig ports assigned. > > Richard > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > <participants.html> *----------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C ---------->> | Mike Tindle | Network Engineer | mtindle(a)he.net | ASN 6939 | http://www.he.net | 510-580-4126 *---------------------------------------------------->> ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Eric Crist

Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps running it with a board elected by members (annual membership dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in the organization. Having a board would also allow for positions such as Treasurer, VP, and President who could help steer things in an organized way. What's been going on thus far has worked, but it seems apparent MICE is growing and beginning to have some growing pains, even if only in terms of donated time/resources running out. Having a treasurer that can report on current expenses, upcoming expenses, and account balances would also help keep tabs on resources. As Richard suggested, labor could always expect to be donated. Other associations I'm a member of operate in a similar manner and have proved successful. The hardest part in the long-run is getting people to participate. Maybe annual membership dues and a rotating list of donated time. (Company X and company Y installed the switches, next on the list is company Z.) Just my 2¢. --- Eric F Crist System Administrator ClaimLynx, Inc (952) 593-5969 x2301 On Oct 12, 2011, at 17:57:38, Richard Laager wrote: > On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 17:19 -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote: >> Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make >> more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all >> members? > > I think it would be wise to start with a list of expenses, including the > frequency and amount. That should make it easy to develop the recurring > and/or non-recurring fees to charge members. It will also provide > transparency, versus just (appearing to be) pulling numbers out of the > air. > >> I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated > > I would recommend assuming all labor will be donated. That can be > revisited later, if needed, but focusing on only cash outflows will keep > the complexity to a minimum. > > Does the MICE LLC have non-profit status with the relevant government > agencies? > > Richard > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Richard Laager

On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 17:19 -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote: > Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make > more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all > members? I think it would be wise to start with a list of expenses, including the frequency and amount. That should make it easy to develop the recurring and/or non-recurring fees to charge members. It will also provide transparency, versus just (appearing to be) pulling numbers out of the air. > I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated I would recommend assuming all labor will be donated. That can be revisited later, if needed, but focusing on only cash outflows will keep the complexity to a minimum. Does the MICE LLC have non-profit status with the relevant government agencies? Richard ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

MICE Port Fees

by Jeremy Lumby

Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members? Something like $25/month for 1 Gig and $100/mo for 10Gig plus the one time cost of optics. If members do not want to take on these fees, they could possibly do some kind of donation of time, such as doing port moves/adds/changes. I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated, and some limits would need to be set (such as if a bunch of people wanted to do it, they would only be able to do so for a limited amount of time to allow others to have a chance as well). I can foresee a time when the recurring funds will need to be built up to purchase additional switches, pay for IP blocks directly from ARIN, and replace failed/old switches/route servers. I know that the donation of space, and power from FWR had a time limit on it, and those recurring costs will be coming up as well. I feel now is the time to plan ahead/save up some extra money so when those donations run out the exchange will not hit a brick wall with members that would be sticker shocked by how much it would take to keep it going. I think a little bit from every member over the years will add up to quite a bit by the time that some major expenses hit the exchange. By that point in time, I think small adjustments if any in the monthly fee would be much easier to swallow for the members. I think that anyone that realizes the value of the exchange would gladly pay to stay connected. I am sure that the recurring fees would never need to be more than the cost of the cross connect which we are already gladly paying for, and the more people that join, the higher the value of the exchange, and the smaller the cost on a per member basis. I do not think that the marketing of the exchange needs to be that it is of little to no cost, I believe it can be marketed as us sharing our knowledge of the benefits of the exchange with potential members, as well as making sure that they realize that the exchange exists. From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:45 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees What is the funding model of the exchange now? I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Participants List Web Page

by Richard Laager

The participants.html web page is out-of-date. Given this is a volunteer-run exchange, I've done a bunch of updating work myself. (See the attachment.) I believe I have everything current and complete, except as noted below. This originally started because I wanted looking glass addresses listed. I've since changed my thinking on that. If you list a looking glass in your peeringdb.com entry, bgp.he.net (to which we already link) picks that up automatically. This saves us from having to maintain that data on the MICE participants page. Accordingly, I'd like to urge Visi to create a peeringdb.com record and list their Looking Glass URL. (No shaming implied... I don't have a looking glass running... yet.) Should the MICE AS have a peeringdb.com entry? We could list the route server there, for the same reason. Is there value in linking to the respective peeringdb.com links? If so, should the anchor text be the carrier's name, or a new column? We are still missing contacts for these networks: South Dakota Networks Dakota Carrier Network Northern Lights GigaPoP Compudyne MyTelepath Genesis Wireless/RevNetData Jaguar Communications NU Telecom Dakota Carrier Network was assigned two IPv4 addresses, but only one IPv6 address. I assume the IPv6 assignment was an oversight. Is Hurricane Electric still planning to upgrade to 10Gig? I see they have both 1Gig and 10Gig ports assigned. Richard ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

> > > What is the funding model of the exchange now? > I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Owen DeLong

I believe so far, the funding model has been corporate and personal largess. Said funding model does not scale and I think the fees proposed are quite reasonable. I say this personally. I have not yet discussed the matter with my colleagues at HE. Owen Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2011, at 16:32, "Hannigan, Martin" <marty(a)AKAMAI.COM> wrote: > > > What is the funding model of the exchange now? > > Best, > > -M< > > > > > On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: > > I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. > > Perhaps something like: > 1G $250 (+optic) > 10G $1500 (+optic) > > We would use the money to operate the exchange. > > Jay > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Hannigan, Martin

What is the funding model of the exchange now? Best, -M< On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic) We would use the money to operate the exchange. Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic) We would use the money to operate the exchange. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Steve Howard

On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found humor in it. > I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... > > I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... > > Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. > > I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) > > Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. > > That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no valid PTR record. > Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE members or the internet community. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Mike Horwath

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:06:14AM -0400, Owen DeLong wrote: > I find the extra SECONDS, not ms, that it takes when things don't > resolve, especially when it's an IOS typo command that IOS tries to > turn into a host name for telnet, for example to be far more > annoying than the numeric (which is usually what I want if I'm on a > router or looking glass anyway) output in trace routes. <snarky comment removed about not doing typos> :) We each have our reasons one way or another, and for MICE, I really don't care. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

I find the extra SECONDS, not ms, that it takes when things don't resolve, especially when it's an IOS typo command that IOS tries to turn into a host name for telnet, for example to be far more annoying than the numeric (which is usually what I want if I'm on a router or looking glass anyway) output in trace routes. Owen Sent from my iPad On Oct 11, 2011, at 10:14, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. > > I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... > > I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... > > Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. > > I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) > > Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. > > That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. > > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. > > -- > Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Mike Horwath

This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. -- Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Steve Howard

I would prefer that we do not enable DNS lookups. We disable them in all of our devices due to the delays that they can cause, especially with traceroutes. Steve On 10/10/2011 09:44 PM, Frank Bulk wrote: > There's no DNS resolution set up on that router -- is that a BCP, or something that can be added? > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jeremy Lumby > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:31 PM > To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET > Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass > > I just wanted to let everyone know that MICE now has a public looking glass. I donated an old Cisco 7120 Router, and Doug from the ipHouse configured/installed it, as well as provided internet access to it. You can look at the routes by telneting to route-server.micemn.net The username is provided in the log in banner. > > Jeremy Lumby > Minnesota VoIP > 9217 17th Ave S > Suite 216 > Bloomington, MN 55425 > Main: 612-355-7740 > Direct: 612-392-6814 > E-Fax: 952-873-7425 > jlumby(a)mnvoip.com > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

It's a BCP. Waiting for DNS when it doesn't resolve is the last thing you want to do with a looking glass and numeric results are usually far more useful anyway. Owen On Oct 10, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Frank Bulk wrote: > There's no DNS resolution set up on that router -- is that a BCP, or something that can be added? > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jeremy Lumby > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:31 PM > To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET > Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass > > I just wanted to let everyone know that MICE now has a public looking glass. I donated an old Cisco 7120 Router, and Doug from the ipHouse configured/installed it, as well as provided internet access to it. You can look at the routes by telneting to route-server.micemn.net The username is provided in the log in banner. > > Jeremy Lumby > Minnesota VoIP > 9217 17th Ave S > Suite 216 > Bloomington, MN 55425 > Main: 612-355-7740 > Direct: 612-392-6814 > E-Fax: 952-873-7425 > jlumby(a)mnvoip.com > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 11, 2011