- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: MICE Traffic

by Jay Hanke

> Perhaps I should run up RTG along side it and use it specifically to > create aggregate graphs. > > Otherwise I could create one in Cacti, just gonna take time to get all of > the data points added to the data source and the upkeep won't be much fun. Whatever is easiest to set up. It would be nice to have something fairly soon so we can show off the hockey stick graph. jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 17, 2011

Re: Akamai IP address space

by Owen DeLong

On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Mike Horwath wrote: > On 4/16/11 10:59 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owend(a)HE.NET> wrote: > >> On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:00 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: >> >>> On 4/15/11 8:40 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: >>> >>>>> Is our hope that if we can get one CDN to hook up the rest will follow >>>>> on their own? >>>>> It might be a little more palatable if we think about it with a long >>>>> view. >>>> >>>> Indirectly yes. There are a number of local networks that won't >>>> connect unless we have one of the big cdns available on the exchange. >>>> There are cdns that won't connect until we have more local networks >>>> connected. >>> >>> I love the 'community'. >>> >> No sarcasm, there, right? ;-) > > I actually do love the community that it can be. Most of my sarcasm comes > from my next paragraph. > I think you may have misunderstood my meaning there. I wasn't questioning your love for the community so much as agreeing with your despair over some actions the community is considering. >>> I mean, unless my demands are met, I can not join your community even if >>> it would benefit myself and the community, now leave me alone while I >>> check out this new pile of sand and figure out what is underneath. >>> >> Yeah, not a particularly community-spirited attitude. I agree with you. > > Right and my sarcasm should be a very big LART. > Agreed. >>> I am not interested in kowtowing further for CDNs or begging for >>> networks >>> to connect when they say they would and still haven't after 6+ months. >>> >> Lol > > Yah, I was doing the lol for a while. > >>> Some seem to have forgotten about this idea of interconnecting locally >>> for >>> the benefit of their downstream customers, whether that is a student, >>> another company who isn't multi-homed, or their employees. >>> >> That is unfortunate. Obviously we (Hurricane Electric) feel that there is >> extensive value in connecting to various exchanges. I believe we've been >> routing traffic via MICE since shortly after our network arrived in >> Minneapolis. > > Correct. > > Your network was lit and very quickly you were connected. > > Yet there are others, on this list, that are literally just down the aisle > and haven't connected yet. > That's unfortunate. I have to wonder why they would pass up such an opportunity. > HE deserves some kudos. Thank you! > We're happy to be there. We see value in the exchange and we're benefitting from being connected. We should be thanking those who got it organized and established. >>> How many on this list: >>> >>> Are connected... >>> >> Yep... Check! >> >>> Have an Akamai cluster today... >>> >> Uh, no comment due to NDA. (see question 4) >> >>> Either have static assignments logged with Akamai or use a silent BGP >>> feed... >>> >> I'm not sure I: >> 1. Understand the question completely >> 2. Could answer it if I did. > > Ah, old ays Akamai wanted to know your blocks so they could add them to > the database. > > Newish way is to do a silent BGP session with them that pushes the > networks you wish to have in their database. > > When I ran the network for VISI, we were doing option #1 (site number 97!). > > For ipHouse - we are doing option 2. > OK... Now I mostly understand the question. I can't answer it in our case. >>> Are willing to plug in networks received over the route servers into >>> their >>> configuration for their Akamai cluster config... >>> >> I think you'd like my answer if I could give it, but, it is neither yes >> nor no >> because the question doesn't fit the parameters of our particular >> situation. > > Hopefully my clarification helps. > The clarification helps my understanding. The question still doesn't fit the parameters of our particular situation with regard to Akamai. >>> ipHouse answer: Yes to all 4 >>> >>> If enough others do this, then we'll have a redundant array of Akamai >>> servers reachable over the interconnections we have put in place as >>> being >>> part of MICE. >>> >> I think that's a great idea. >> >> I also think it would be worth encouraging Akamai to deploy a shared >> resource for the exchange, possibly allowing them to reclaim some or all >> of the resources they have deployed within member networks, providing >> benefit to the community and to Akamai. > > I'd be down with that as well. > >>> And if you think they are going to sit back because things are already >>> in >>> place... I don't think so, and that's because my little cluster I have >>> in >>> my data center won't sustain the total traffic, neither will yours, and >>> as >>> customers complain, Akamai (the example used right now) will hear about >>> it >>> and want to do something about it. >>> >> That might also be true, it might not. I'm happy to have a more detailed >> discussion with you off-list. > > Your place or mine, big boy? > lol... Look for an off-list reply from me shortly. >>> My rant is over, whatever the community wants to do is fine by me, but >>> as >>> one of the steering committee members, I am backing off from this issue >>> that is of minor importance to me. >>> >>> I find it would be far more important for those networks that stated >>> they >>> were going to connect to get off of their butts and connect. >>> >> I agree with you 100% here. >> >>> You know who you are...500Mbps of aggregate traffic already and growing, >>> don't you want to be on the ground floor of the community so you can say >>> 'I was there when it started'? >>> >> Yep... And if anyone connecting today can say that, I'm pretty sure that >> I can, >> too. ;-) > > Beat that chest, you deserve it as one of the reps from HE. Others from > HE on the list, here is my back clapping for you as well. > While I appreciate the compliments, my intent was more to point out to others that haven't yet connected that there is real value here with or without Akamai. My intent was to lead by example rather than boast. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 17, 2011

Re: MICE Traffic

by Andrew Hoyos

> > Owen - What would it take to get HE to build out to MadIX/Madison? I know several folks who'd be interested in getting transit and there are no port fees at the exchange. +1 for HE bits in Madison and/or Milwaukee, for the HE folks on the list - I'm sure we could drum up enough gig ports for you guys to make it worthwhile! FWIW, a small group of us are also in the process of building an exchange in Milwaukee, similar to MICE and MadIX. Brocade has donated us a pair of switches to run the exchange, and we should be ready for (free) cross connects after next week. For more info on the MKE-IX, see the website (www.mkeix.net - more to come soon), and join the discussion lists (http://lists.mkeix.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo) Or, feel free to contact me for more info too... Thanks! Andrew -- Andrew Hoyos Hoyos Consulting LLC ofc: +1 608 616 9950 andrew(a)hoyosconsulting.com www.hoyosconsulting.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 17, 2011

Re: MICE Traffic

by Mike Horwath

On 4/16/11 4:28 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: >> It might be a good time to confirm the group's feelings on >> this - at the moment we're planning to have an aggregate >> graph that's public and graphs/views available to all of >> us that show everyone's traffic; theory being that sunshine >> makes for good neighbors. > >How close are we to having an aggregate graph ready? Built from Cacti? None created. Perhaps I should run up RTG along side it and use it specifically to create aggregate graphs. Otherwise I could create one in Cacti, just gonna take time to get all of the data points added to the data source and the upkeep won't be much fun. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: MICE Traffic

by Jay Hanke

> It might be a good time to confirm the group's feelings on > this - at the moment we're planning to have an aggregate > graph that's public and graphs/views available to all of > us that show everyone's traffic; theory being that sunshine > makes for good neighbors. How close are we to having an aggregate graph ready? Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: MICE Traffic

by Reid Fishler

HE buildouts are my department...Ill chat with you offline... Reid On Apr 16, 2011 5:23 PM, "James Stahr" <stahr(a)mailbag.com> wrote: > At 10:53 AM 4/15/2011, you wrote: >> > The graphs aren't really public right now. IIRC, we're planning >> > to publish the aggregate graph as soon as that is created. >> >>It might be a good time to confirm the group's feelings on >>this - at the moment we're planning to have an aggregate >>graph that's public and graphs/views available to all of >>us that show everyone's traffic; theory being that sunshine >>makes for good neighbors. >> >>Silence will be interpreted as enthusiastic support for >>the current plan. > > How about something like this: > > <http://stats.net.wisc.edu/madix.html>http://stats.net.wisc.edu/madix.html > > > Some people might not like to have that information public, but I for > one don't care. > > Owen - What would it take to get HE to build out to MadIX/Madison? I > know several folks who'd be interested in getting transit and there > are no port fees at the exchange. > > > -James > CDW Technologies > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: Akamai IP address space

by Jay Hanke

> Right and my sarcasm should be a very big LART. I love it! I haven't heard that one in a while... >>> Are willing to plug in networks received over the route servers into >>>their >>> configuration for their Akamai cluster config... I am all for this. I do know that Akamai watches the clusters for traffic very carefully. If there's anything I can do to help just let me know. >>> >>> If enough others do this, then we'll have a redundant array of Akamai >>> servers reachable over the interconnections we have put in place as >>>being >>> part of MICE. >>> >>I think that's a great idea. Absolutely, remember if you already have a cluster it's populated with the most popular content already, so it isn't much extra overhead. >> >>I also think it would be worth encouraging Akamai to deploy a shared >>resource for the exchange, possibly allowing them to reclaim some or all >>of the resources they have deployed within member networks, providing >>benefit to the community and to Akamai. > > I'd be down with that as well. Yes, that's what started this whole thread. > >>> And if you think they are going to sit back because things are already >>>in >>> place... I don't think so, and that's because my little cluster I have >>>in >>> my data center won't sustain the total traffic, neither will yours, and >>>as >>> customers complain, Akamai (the example used right now) will hear about >>>it >>> and want to do something about it. >>> I think Akamai will notice. > Beat that chest, you deserve it as one of the reps from HE. Others from > HE on the list, here is my back clapping for you as well. I'll second that! A couple of side notes: 1) We've created a little ISP community, we've got many if not most of the faithful involved or connected. The next layer out is more skeptical or at least unfamiliar with a community solving problems. Turning this group into believers will greatly help (and grow) our established community. Not everyone we're talking to has run an ISP for 15 years or has had a FidoNet account. They need a little coaxing because they don't know and it's scary. 2) As Mr. O'Conner stated at the last users group meeting, many of the next steps involve letting the cat out of the bag. I think specifically in the local business community, we need to let them know who has EXCELLENT local connectivity. This batch of future participants will respond better to customer pressure than community pressure. 3) IMHO 500 Mb/s is a legit exchange, how many people outside this list know that? Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: MICE Traffic

by James Stahr

At 10:53 AM 4/15/2011, you wrote: > > The graphs aren't really public right now. IIRC, we're planning > > to publish the aggregate graph as soon as that is created. > >It might be a good time to confirm the group's feelings on >this - at the moment we're planning to have an aggregate >graph that's public and graphs/views available to all of >us that show everyone's traffic; theory being that sunshine >makes for good neighbors. > >Silence will be interpreted as enthusiastic support for >the current plan. How about something like this: <http://stats.net.wisc.edu/madix.html>http://stats.net.wisc.edu/madix.html Some people might not like to have that information public, but I for one don't care. Owen - What would it take to get HE to build out to MadIX/Madison? I know several folks who'd be interested in getting transit and there are no port fees at the exchange. -James CDW Technologies ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: Akamai IP address space

by Mike Horwath

On 4/16/11 10:59 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owend(a)HE.NET> wrote: >On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:00 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > >> On 4/15/11 8:40 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: >> >>>> Is our hope that if we can get one CDN to hook up the rest will follow >>>> on their own? >>>> It might be a little more palatable if we think about it with a long >>>> view. >>> >>> Indirectly yes. There are a number of local networks that won't >>> connect unless we have one of the big cdns available on the exchange. >>> There are cdns that won't connect until we have more local networks >>> connected. >> >> I love the 'community'. >> >No sarcasm, there, right? ;-) I actually do love the community that it can be. Most of my sarcasm comes from my next paragraph. >> I mean, unless my demands are met, I can not join your community even if >> it would benefit myself and the community, now leave me alone while I >> check out this new pile of sand and figure out what is underneath. >> >Yeah, not a particularly community-spirited attitude. I agree with you. Right and my sarcasm should be a very big LART. >> I am not interested in kowtowing further for CDNs or begging for >>networks >> to connect when they say they would and still haven't after 6+ months. >> >Lol Yah, I was doing the lol for a while. >> Some seem to have forgotten about this idea of interconnecting locally >>for >> the benefit of their downstream customers, whether that is a student, >> another company who isn't multi-homed, or their employees. >> >That is unfortunate. Obviously we (Hurricane Electric) feel that there is >extensive value in connecting to various exchanges. I believe we've been >routing traffic via MICE since shortly after our network arrived in >Minneapolis. Correct. Your network was lit and very quickly you were connected. Yet there are others, on this list, that are literally just down the aisle and haven't connected yet. HE deserves some kudos. Thank you! >> How many on this list: >> >> Are connected... >> >Yep... Check! > >> Have an Akamai cluster today... >> >Uh, no comment due to NDA. (see question 4) > >> Either have static assignments logged with Akamai or use a silent BGP >> feed... >> >I'm not sure I: > 1. Understand the question completely > 2. Could answer it if I did. Ah, old ays Akamai wanted to know your blocks so they could add them to the database. Newish way is to do a silent BGP session with them that pushes the networks you wish to have in their database. When I ran the network for VISI, we were doing option #1 (site number 97!). For ipHouse - we are doing option 2. >> Are willing to plug in networks received over the route servers into >>their >> configuration for their Akamai cluster config... >> >I think you'd like my answer if I could give it, but, it is neither yes >nor no >because the question doesn't fit the parameters of our particular >situation. Hopefully my clarification helps. >> ipHouse answer: Yes to all 4 >> >> If enough others do this, then we'll have a redundant array of Akamai >> servers reachable over the interconnections we have put in place as >>being >> part of MICE. >> >I think that's a great idea. > >I also think it would be worth encouraging Akamai to deploy a shared >resource for the exchange, possibly allowing them to reclaim some or all >of the resources they have deployed within member networks, providing >benefit to the community and to Akamai. I'd be down with that as well. >> And if you think they are going to sit back because things are already >>in >> place... I don't think so, and that's because my little cluster I have >>in >> my data center won't sustain the total traffic, neither will yours, and >>as >> customers complain, Akamai (the example used right now) will hear about >>it >> and want to do something about it. >> >That might also be true, it might not. I'm happy to have a more detailed >discussion with you off-list. Your place or mine, big boy? >> My rant is over, whatever the community wants to do is fine by me, but >>as >> one of the steering committee members, I am backing off from this issue >> that is of minor importance to me. >> >> I find it would be far more important for those networks that stated >>they >> were going to connect to get off of their butts and connect. >> >I agree with you 100% here. > >> You know who you are...500Mbps of aggregate traffic already and growing, >> don't you want to be on the ground floor of the community so you can say >> 'I was there when it started'? >> >Yep... And if anyone connecting today can say that, I'm pretty sure that >I can, >too. ;-) Beat that chest, you deserve it as one of the reps from HE. Others from HE on the list, here is my back clapping for you as well. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011

Re: Akamai IP address space

by Owen DeLong

On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:00 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > On 4/15/11 8:40 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: > >>> Is our hope that if we can get one CDN to hook up the rest will follow >>> on their own? >>> It might be a little more palatable if we think about it with a long >>> view. >> >> Indirectly yes. There are a number of local networks that won't >> connect unless we have one of the big cdns available on the exchange. >> There are cdns that won't connect until we have more local networks >> connected. > > I love the 'community'. > No sarcasm, there, right? ;-) > I mean, unless my demands are met, I can not join your community even if > it would benefit myself and the community, now leave me alone while I > check out this new pile of sand and figure out what is underneath. > Yeah, not a particularly community-spirited attitude. I agree with you. >>> But of course we also have to think about the precedent we're setting... >> >> We should be mindful of this. > > This discussion has changed my mind about things. > > CDN wants to connect, they can buy a rack and provide a cross-connect and > peer up either via the route servers or do some bilateral peering. > I won't quite go that far. CDNs do present a somewhat different value proposition to an exchange. I believe they add enough value that if the costs are low, comping them the XC and the space is not an unreasonable value proposition for the exchange. Obviously this can vary some, depending on the CDN in question. > Those providers who won't connect without a CDN need to put pressure on > the CDN if that is their requirement, and they can continue routing to > Kansas City or Chicago for years for all I care. > I think this is not an unreasonable position. > And if I sound pissy, sorry. > I'd say you sound frustrated more than pissy. There's strong emotion in your comments, but, they also make sense from a purely pragmatic perspective as far as I can tell. > I am not interested in kowtowing further for CDNs or begging for networks > to connect when they say they would and still haven't after 6+ months. > lol > Some seem to have forgotten about this idea of interconnecting locally for > the benefit of their downstream customers, whether that is a student, > another company who isn't multi-homed, or their employees. > That is unfortunate. Obviously we (Hurricane Electric) feel that there is extensive value in connecting to various exchanges. I believe we've been routing traffic via MICE since shortly after our network arrived in Minneapolis. > This has the added benefit of shaving costs on Internet fees for > bandwidth, and as time goes on, the benefit continues to grow with the > addition of more networks joining the community bringing to the table the > other benefits. Like CDNs, or sharing of a resource of some type. > I couldn't agree more. > How many on this list: > > Are connected... > Yep... Check! > Have an Akamai cluster today... > Uh, no comment due to NDA. (see question 4) > Either have static assignments logged with Akamai or use a silent BGP > feed... > I'm not sure I: 1. Understand the question completely 2. Could answer it if I did. > Are willing to plug in networks received over the route servers into their > configuration for their Akamai cluster config... > I think you'd like my answer if I could give it, but, it is neither yes nor no because the question doesn't fit the parameters of our particular situation. > ipHouse answer: Yes to all 4 > > If enough others do this, then we'll have a redundant array of Akamai > servers reachable over the interconnections we have put in place as being > part of MICE. > I think that's a great idea. I also think it would be worth encouraging Akamai to deploy a shared resource for the exchange, possibly allowing them to reclaim some or all of the resources they have deployed within member networks, providing benefit to the community and to Akamai. > *WE* can do something for MICE, we don't need to beg Akamai for something, > or Limelight, or any of the myriad of others. We start showing the > benefits to *our* community and eventually the CDNs will see that they > will get more eyes (== $$$) on the content by providing a direct cluster. > Yep. > And if you think they are going to sit back because things are already in > place... I don't think so, and that's because my little cluster I have in > my data center won't sustain the total traffic, neither will yours, and as > customers complain, Akamai (the example used right now) will hear about it > and want to do something about it. > That might also be true, it might not. I'm happy to have a more detailed discussion with you off-list. > My rant is over, whatever the community wants to do is fine by me, but as > one of the steering committee members, I am backing off from this issue > that is of minor importance to me. > > I find it would be far more important for those networks that stated they > were going to connect to get off of their butts and connect. > I agree with you 100% here. > You know who you are...500Mbps of aggregate traffic already and growing, > don't you want to be on the ground floor of the community so you can say > 'I was there when it started'? > Yep... And if anyone connecting today can say that, I'm pretty sure that I can, too. ;-) Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

April 16, 2011