- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

On Jul 21, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote: > on of the tricky things to coming up with a fee is the "what to include in the cost?" question. right now, MICE is making Stone Soup out of the time, energy, thought, leadership, connections, rack space and hardware of it's members. i bet that if one were to put a value on all of those things, we'd find that allocating that number across ports/bandwidth would result in a hefty number. > Initially, I'd say make sure that each connection is providing enough to cover the monthly costs associated with that connection (prorated share of space, power, maintenance contracts, etc.) plus a small contribution to a hardware reserve (the apportioned cost of replacing the hardware with new gear once every 5 years or so). Continued volunteer labor is sustainable for a while and is probably the best plan unless or until the exchange becomes large enough to consume at least one FTE. By that point, the incremental cost of adding an FTE divided by aggregate bandwidth probably doesn't result in a hefty fee increase. > one question -- is MICE ever likely to get to a point where it needs new/current gear? or can it live on cast-offs for a good long time yet? if cast offs will work, then i'd lobby for continuing that tradition so that the cooperative can continue as a zero-cost affair for as long as possible. MICE is already approaching the point where castoffs don't scale... Witness the current conversation around upgrading the Juniper gear. > > of course, guilt-tripping the orgs that don't pull their weight (pleas for cast-off gear, more help, more participation, etc.) would remain on the table. :-) > As a general rule, this only scales to a relatively small scale and is not reliably sustainable on a long-term basis. I would like to see the future of MICE be a little more certain than is possible with this mechanism. Owen > mikey > > PS, here's the wikipedia version of Stone Soup for those of you who haven't heard the tale before. > > Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the hungry travellers. Then the travellers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travellers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful, although it still needs a little bit of garnish to improve the flavour, which they are missing. The villager does not mind parting with a few carrots to help them out, so that gets added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travellers again mention their stone soup which has not reached its full potential yet. The villager hands them a little bit of seasoning to help them out. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient. Finally, a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by all. > - - - - - - - - - > phone 651-647-6109 > fax 866-280-2356 > web http://www.haven2.com > handle OConnorStP (ID for public places like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.) > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants. Owen On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:03 PM, Reid Fishler wrote: > There is no reason why a SMALL fee cannot be charged by the exchange to recover costs. This is not a for-profit enterprise, but I am sure $100-200 for the traffic most are getting beats anyones transit costs... > > Reid > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend(a)he.net> wrote: > For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc. > > Agreed > > It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events. > > I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange. > > I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month. > > Here's a link: > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups/How-much-is-MICE-10G-3000346.S.91293159?qid=… > > The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness. > > My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees. > > Jay > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > > -- > Reid Fishler > Director > Hurricane Electric > +1-510-580-4178 > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jeremy Berg

On Jul 21, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:26:16AM -0500, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: >> This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from >> the exchange also. >> >> Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? >> Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either. > > Devils adovcate: > > why should there be a discount if you are using twice the constrained > resources? I would assume, in this case, the ports are the commodity, not any kind of bandwidth (exchanging, not transit). So discounts should not be considered. -- Jeremy Berg •Sent from my iPhone• ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Horwath

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:26:16AM -0500, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: > This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from > the exchange also. > > Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? > Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either. Devils adovcate: why should there be a discount if you are using twice the constrained resources? -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Horwath

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 09:40:00AM -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote: > Does MICE have a PayPal account or other means to accept electronic > donations, or proposed maintenance fees? I don't think so, no. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

I agree with Shaun that we should make this part of the next meeting. I think with the new 4500 switch(s) and also the member fee we should look at the future of "remote" switches also. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 20, 2012 7:08 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com> wrote: > This sounds like a great topic to revisit at our next MICE UG meeting. I > seem to recall discussing this at the last one as well. > > s > > *Shaun Carlson > *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig > ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson > em: shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com > > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Jeremy Lumby <jlumby(a)mnvoip.com> wrote: > >> ** >> I agree with Owen >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] *On Behalf >> Of *Owen DeLong >> *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2012 5:36 PM >> *To:* MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET >> *Subject:* Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade >> >> For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need >> to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc. >> >> It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would >> like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support >> where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve >> that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and >> later can provide for unforseen events. >> >> Owen >> >> On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Hanke wrote: >> >> As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on >> the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and >> will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are >> members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch. >> >> I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of >> EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500. >> >> http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/ >> >> The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add >> additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was >> sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the >> gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a >> FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches. >> >> After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day >> Support) + any sales taxes (if any). >> >> MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE >> and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent >> any of the members from taking their ball and going home. >> >> We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE >> member. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jay >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: >> http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: >> http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: >> http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

It would be good to have a second switch for redundancy also. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 20, 2012 4:52 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net> wrote: > As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on > the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and > will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are > members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch. > > I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of > EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500. > > http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/ > > The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add > additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was > sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the > gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a > FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches. > > After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day > Support) + any sales taxes (if any). > > MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE > and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent > any of the members from taking their ball and going home. > > We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE > member. > > Thanks, > > Jay > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from the exchange also. Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 9:25 AM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer(a)umn.edu> wrote: > >> Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. >> However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less >> paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you >> provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract >> and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. >> > > I propose starting CY 2013: > > -1st 10/100/1000 port free > -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) > -10G port ($2000/year) > > Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. > Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to > calendar billing. > > Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash > donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. > > jay > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jeremy Lumby

Does MICE have a PayPal account or other means to accept electronic donations, or proposed maintenance fees? From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer(a)umn.edu> wrote: Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. I propose starting CY 2013: -1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year) Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing. Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. jay To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jay Hanke

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer(a)umn.edu> wrote: > Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, > I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and > less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as > option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will > definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. > I propose starting CY 2013: -1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year) Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing. Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012