- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Jason Hanke

> If we’re going the annual route - any reason/logic behind why the 20g -> 80g range seems to carry a disproportionate amount of the fee load? The networks in this range are moving the bulk of the traffic on the IX > Why shouldn’t all 10g ports just be $250/yr? With this layout, I fear that the “Big Guys” will think you’re dumping the fee load (and downstream equipment cost) onto them by forcing 100g ports at that cost for n x 10g. Seems like being agnostic on a port level (no matter how many you have) would be a better move. Looking at the overall economics to a member the cross connect cost dominates the spend. Specifically when doing lag. If you take the annual fee and convert it to monthly it works out to be about $83 dollars with a $200 cross connect for a monthly total of $283 on a second port. For example 4 member 10G lag (monthly): Port 1 $200+$21=$221 Port 2 $200+$83=$283 Port 3 $200+$83=$283 Port 4 $200+$83=$283 ------------------------------- Total $1070 per month A single 100G Port 1 $200+$250=$450 per month This leaves room to cover the incremental 100G optics cost. If the 10G ports were free the 100G would still be a better deal for the big guys. > I’d also disagree with not allowing multiple 1g ports for customers into a LAG. For small bootstrapped companies, that 1g -> 10g jump can be expensive, and 2xGigE LAG doesn’t seem like a problem in the case where they are hitting that 60-70% on a GigE. Given the Arista architecture and depth of buffers there, I wouldn’t see any technical issue leaving the EX4550 hanging off the 7504, just for 1g customers, if you’re worried about burning “expensive” ports. > Again the cross connect fees dominate the economics at the 1G level. For the initial hardware costs. 1G lag would be allowed on the remote switches if the remote switch operator allowed it. I think all the remote switches would allow it, Neutral Path certainly would. I don't think we've had a request for a 1G lag since we had 10G available on the main switch. All of the aggregate traffic on the "1G" switch is peaking at less than 1G. [image: Inline image 1] Jay

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Reid Fishler

Bill- The problem is we can't charge more than some members use the exchange, and we can't plan for everything. We may still go to the membership and ask for support if need-be, but we can't have the cost of the exchange be too high...look at the other competitive exchanges of our size...all are doing something similar. Believe me, the board spent ALOT of time working on this...ALOT. :-) Reid On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Bil MacLeslie <bil(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On 12/1/16 9:39 AM, Jason Hanke wrote: > > Arin: $300 >> Accounting: $1800 (includes postage for billing) >> Hardware support: $15000 >> > > Two questions. > > 1 - How does $1800 / year cover the costs of actually DOING the > accounting, e.g. creating new members & invoices, processing payments, > calling on collections, etc. This number seems low to me. Additional > thought, some entities will want to pay with a credit card, we should > prepare for this and cover the costs of processing payments in the budget. > > 2 - Where is hardware refresh in the budget? I see a clipped sentence in > your message ( This would cover hardware support and Arin fees and > accounting expense with the remainder going) - maybe it was in there? > > We have been lucky to secure donations of equipment, but what about the > future? Your budget should include setting aside dollars for hardware > expansion and refresh, and not just switches, but route servers too. > > Additional thoughts, if new technologies emerge and a hardware vendor that > has said technology doesn't feel like donating equipment, how would we > proceed without a hardware budget? And... by accepting donations from > hardware vendors, we are setting the precedent of "picking a winner", and > could cause headache/heartache in the future. > > I strongly suggest we use the port fees to pay for hardware refresh as > well as hardware maintenance. > > Bil > > -- > Bil K. MacLeslie | TGWGTD | ipHouse | www.ipHouse.com > Office: 612-337-6337 | Direct: 612-337-6206 | Cell: 612-618-1218 > > -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Bil MacLeslie

On 12/1/16 9:39 AM, Jason Hanke wrote: > Arin: $300 > Accounting: $1800 (includes postage for billing) > Hardware support: $15000 Two questions. 1 - How does $1800 / year cover the costs of actually DOING the accounting, e.g. creating new members & invoices, processing payments, calling on collections, etc. This number seems low to me. Additional thought, some entities will want to pay with a credit card, we should prepare for this and cover the costs of processing payments in the budget. 2 - Where is hardware refresh in the budget? I see a clipped sentence in your message ( This would cover hardware support and Arin fees and accounting expense with the remainder going) - maybe it was in there? We have been lucky to secure donations of equipment, but what about the future? Your budget should include setting aside dollars for hardware expansion and refresh, and not just switches, but route servers too. Additional thoughts, if new technologies emerge and a hardware vendor that has said technology doesn't feel like donating equipment, how would we proceed without a hardware budget? And... by accepting donations from hardware vendors, we are setting the precedent of "picking a winner", and could cause headache/heartache in the future. I strongly suggest we use the port fees to pay for hardware refresh as well as hardware maintenance. Bil -- Bil K. MacLeslie | TGWGTD | ipHouse | www.ipHouse.com Office: 612-337-6337 | Direct: 612-337-6206 | Cell: 612-618-1218

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Dean Bahls

I really like this proposal! Small users can connect painlessly. (I might suggest that LAG is optional but they have to pay something for the 2nd+ 10G ports. Maybe it's $250 for each additional 1G annually?) >From CNS's perspective, we'd be into it for $2,250 annually for the three 10G ports that we consume on the main switch. This is reasonable and affordable. If we decide to charge our downstream customers to offset the cost, that's on us. Thanks to USI and Arista as well! Dean -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jason Hanke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:40 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment All- Our main switch is nearing the end of its lifespan and the available port count is dwindling. At the current rate of burn we will be out of ports in early-2017. USI has arranged for Arista Networks to donate a 7504 switch with 32x100G and 96x10G ports with one year of support. In year 2, MICE would be responsible for the ongoing support costs about 14k per year. There would be one additional slot for future growth. I would like to make a formal request for comment and add the following item to the UG agenda. Here's what I'd propose: 1G ports= Free (Only 1 port per member, NO LAG allowed) Initial 10G port= $250 Annual Each additional 10G port $1000 Annual per port (up to 8 member LAG allowed) 100G port $3000 Annual per port Remote switch operators pay the fee for their main switch ports. Remote switch participants do not pay a main switch port fee. No grandfathering, all types of networks are treated the same. We will not disconnect for non-payment until port run out and contention occurs. A policy will need to be developed. New ports billed at time of allocation. Each carrier provides their own optic. Arista has agreed to remove the vendor lockout for optics. This will yield about $37k of annual revenue assuming everyone pays. We don't disconnect for non-payment but members in good standing would take priority over non-paying members. This would cover hardware support and Arin fees and accounting expense with the remainder going If we extended the full fees to all 10G ports this would generate $70k annually. Looking out, I don't think we will need to raise that much cash to keep operating as we are now. Ongoing Expense looks something like this: Arin: $300 Accounting: $1800 (includes postage for billing) Hardware support: $15000 This financial projection assumes we add no additional ports than what is currently allocated. I'm seeking input/amendment from the membership prior to the board taking action for the 2017 year. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Steve Howard

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Andrew Hoyos

On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke(a)NEUTRALPATH.NET> wrote: > > USI has arranged for Arista Networks to donate a 7504 switch with > 32x100G and 96x10G ports with one year of support. In year 2, MICE > would be responsible for the ongoing support costs about 14k per year. > There would be one additional slot for future growth. That’s awesome, thanks USI and Arista! Seems like a no brainer to proceed with that option. > Here's what I'd propose: > 1G ports= Free (Only 1 port per member, NO LAG allowed) > Initial 10G port= $250 Annual > Each additional 10G port $1000 Annual per port (up to 8 member LAG allowed) > 100G port $3000 Annual per port If we’re going the annual route - any reason/logic behind why the 20g -> 80g range seems to carry a disproportionate amount of the fee load? Why shouldn’t all 10g ports just be $250/yr? With this layout, I fear that the “Big Guys” will think you’re dumping the fee load (and downstream equipment cost) onto them by forcing 100g ports at that cost for n x 10g. Seems like being agnostic on a port level (no matter how many you have) would be a better move. For comparison on a IX that charges yearly and is non-profit like MICE, NWAX might be a good example, which is charging: 1gbps Port 1st port FREE - additional, $295/month 10gbps Port $295/month 100gbps Port $1995/month + $6000 NRC I’d also disagree with not allowing multiple 1g ports for customers into a LAG. For small bootstrapped companies, that 1g -> 10g jump can be expensive, and 2xGigE LAG doesn’t seem like a problem in the case where they are hitting that 60-70% on a GigE. Given the Arista architecture and depth of buffers there, I wouldn’t see any technical issue leaving the EX4550 hanging off the 7504, just for 1g customers, if you’re worried about burning “expensive” ports. Food for thought, YMMV, etc. -andrew -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa(a)gmail.com

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Jeremy Lumby

I think this is a great fee proposal, and special thanks to USI, and Arista -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jason Hanke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:40 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment All- Our main switch is nearing the end of its lifespan and the available port count is dwindling. At the current rate of burn we will be out of ports in early-2017. USI has arranged for Arista Networks to donate a 7504 switch with 32x100G and 96x10G ports with one year of support. In year 2, MICE would be responsible for the ongoing support costs about 14k per year. There would be one additional slot for future growth. I would like to make a formal request for comment and add the following item to the UG agenda. Here's what I'd propose: 1G ports= Free (Only 1 port per member, NO LAG allowed) Initial 10G port= $250 Annual Each additional 10G port $1000 Annual per port (up to 8 member LAG allowed) 100G port $3000 Annual per port Remote switch operators pay the fee for their main switch ports. Remote switch participants do not pay a main switch port fee. No grandfathering, all types of networks are treated the same. We will not disconnect for non-payment until port run out and contention occurs. A policy will need to be developed. New ports billed at time of allocation. Each carrier provides their own optic. Arista has agreed to remove the vendor lockout for optics. This will yield about $37k of annual revenue assuming everyone pays. We don't disconnect for non-payment but members in good standing would take priority over non-paying members. This would cover hardware support and Arin fees and accounting expense with the remainder going If we extended the full fees to all 10G ports this would generate $70k annually. Looking out, I don't think we will need to raise that much cash to keep operating as we are now. Ongoing Expense looks something like this: Arin: $300 Accounting: $1800 (includes postage for billing) Hardware support: $15000 This financial projection assumes we add no additional ports than what is currently allocated. I'm seeking input/amendment from the membership prior to the board taking action for the 2017 year. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

Dec. 1, 2016

MICE Fees Proposal/UG Agenda Item/Request for Comment

by Jason Hanke

All- Our main switch is nearing the end of its lifespan and the available port count is dwindling. At the current rate of burn we will be out of ports in early-2017. USI has arranged for Arista Networks to donate a 7504 switch with 32x100G and 96x10G ports with one year of support. In year 2, MICE would be responsible for the ongoing support costs about 14k per year. There would be one additional slot for future growth. I would like to make a formal request for comment and add the following item to the UG agenda. Here's what I'd propose: 1G ports= Free (Only 1 port per member, NO LAG allowed) Initial 10G port= $250 Annual Each additional 10G port $1000 Annual per port (up to 8 member LAG allowed) 100G port $3000 Annual per port Remote switch operators pay the fee for their main switch ports. Remote switch participants do not pay a main switch port fee. No grandfathering, all types of networks are treated the same. We will not disconnect for non-payment until port run out and contention occurs. A policy will need to be developed. New ports billed at time of allocation. Each carrier provides their own optic. Arista has agreed to remove the vendor lockout for optics. This will yield about $37k of annual revenue assuming everyone pays. We don't disconnect for non-payment but members in good standing would take priority over non-paying members. This would cover hardware support and Arin fees and accounting expense with the remainder going If we extended the full fees to all 10G ports this would generate $70k annually. Looking out, I don't think we will need to raise that much cash to keep operating as we are now. Ongoing Expense looks something like this: Arin: $300 Accounting: $1800 (includes postage for billing) Hardware support: $15000 This financial projection assumes we add no additional ports than what is currently allocated. I'm seeking input/amendment from the membership prior to the board taking action for the 2017 year. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: GigaPoP Remote Switch

by David Farmer

We going to sponsor/operate a full blown remote switch soonish, likely 100G connected we working our way through a major purchasing cycle and have interest from a number of other entities. Please be patient, the wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly, but inevitably. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2016, at 19:07, Richard Laager <rlaager(a)WIKTEL.COM> wrote: > > Should the GigaPoP be considered a "remote switch" for MICE? > > According to the participants list, WiscNet is connecting via the > GigaPoP, but has their own IP. So it seems some layer 2 switching is > happening there. > > -- > Richard

Dec. 1, 2016

Re: GigaPoP Remote Switch

by Jeremy Lumby

I would think it should be considered one. -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Richard Laager Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 7:07 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] GigaPoP Remote Switch Should the GigaPoP be considered a "remote switch" for MICE? According to the participants list, WiscNet is connecting via the GigaPoP, but has their own IP. So it seems some layer 2 switching is happening there. -- Richard

Dec. 1, 2016