- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: Jay's Third proposal

by Anthony Anderberg

Having joined the thoughtful discussion late I don't have too much to add but feel that we've certainly gotten to the point where it isn't fair to expect Jay to go around with hat-in-hand hoping for donations to keep us moving forward. I think this third proposal might be our best plan at the moment, everyone will be contributing to their share of reoccurring costs and it covers our biggest capital cost (10G ports) without getting too complicated for commodity 1G connections. We can try this sort of model and see how the math works out, if it doesn't cover our costs we can always opt for something more complicated. Additionally it's unlikely to generate a bank balance large enough to deter donations or make us look like anything more than we are. Anthony Anderberg Sr. Systems Analyst 320-234-5239 anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 5:17 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: [MICE-DISCUSS] Jay's Third proposal After a bunch of discussion both on and off the list, my thinking has changed a little bit. I liked the lump payment with 10G ports idea that Mr Hoyos brought forward. Also, I like the idea of everyone paying "something". Assuming free colo for long term (3-5 years) So how about the $5000 payment for new 10G ports on the main switch and $250 annually for each IP assignment on the fabric regardless of access method (be it remote or main switch). -- Jay Hanke CTO, CCIE #19093 Mankato Networks LLC PO Box 54 619 S Front St Mankato, MN 56001-3838 Google 530-618-2398 jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net http://www.mankatonetworks.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 24, 2012

Jay's Third proposal

by Jay Hanke

After a bunch of discussion both on and off the list, my thinking has changed a little bit. I liked the lump payment with 10G ports idea that Mr Hoyos brought forward. Also, I like the idea of everyone paying "something". Assuming free colo for long term (3-5 years) So how about the $5000 payment for new 10G ports on the main switch and $250 annually for each IP assignment on the fabric regardless of access method (be it remote or main switch). -- Jay Hanke CTO, CCIE #19093 Mankato Networks LLC PO Box 54 619 S Front St Mankato, MN 56001-3838 Google 530-618-2398 jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net http://www.mankatonetworks.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Horwath

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 02:46:37PM -0500, Andrew Hoyos wrote: > On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Jay Hanke wrote: > > >> I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and > >> that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what > >> a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member. > > > > Cross connects being the same for transit and peering. > > > > MICE Pricing > > > > 10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s > > 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s > > That's assuming you're doing a full GigE on MICE. > > For smaller folks, who are only doing 25-50-100mbps on the exchange, > this quickly exceeds the price of transit. I've still got the Cisco 4500 sitting here. I'll subsidize the port fees on it FOREVER. But you wanna connect to core then pay core rates. <snicker> -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:04 PM, Matthew Beckwell <matthewb(a)AITECH.NET> wrote: > On Jul 23, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, >> plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN. > > > For anyone who's been "grandfathered" in (back in the good old days when all you had to do was justify)-- you pay $100 per year for maintenance, and that's it. Sort of... If you got "grandfathered" and haven't signed an LRSA to protect your resource status with ARIN, you don't pay anything even today. If you got "grandfathered" and have signed an LRSA or RSA, you pay $100 per year. If you are not "grandfathered", you paid a one-time fee when your assignment was issued and then you pay $100/year if you are an end-user (an exchange point is, to the best of my knowledge, an end-user for fee purposes). > So if you got your 6 "Class B" networks back in 1993, and still have them today-- you pay ARIN a grand total of $100 per year. > > If you got your /22 last year (like myself), then you pay $1,250 per year. > That's for an ISP -- You are an ISP. There are different fees for ISPs than for end-users. Trust me, I am _VERY_ familiar with ARIN policies and fees. Owen > ~Matthew > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jay Hanke

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler(a)he.net> wrote: > The only problem I see with this is there is a slightly large hump for > smaller ISP's to go over when they FIRST want to join and don't yet know the > benefit... I think the 1st GE is free, if you need a second you're running a lot of traffic. In this option I'd advocate charging the full 5k for adding a 2nd GE as well to encourage 10G rather than multiple 1Gs. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Reid Fishler

The only problem I see with this is there is a slightly large hump for smaller ISP's to go over when they FIRST want to join and don't yet know the benefit... Reid On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Andrew Hoyos <hoyosa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Andrew Hoyos wrote: > > >> Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G > >> ports, not the current model of no charges ever. > > > > > > Correct - my two cents on why this model works better: > > > > a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: > folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving > more benefit for their $). > > b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my > experience) > > c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to > encourage more participants. > > > > I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would > either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of > those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for > hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve. > > Also, > > d.) keeps administrative burden low - no processing monthly invoices, > payments, etc. > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Nevin Lyne <nevin(a)ENGINEHOSTING.COM> wrote: > >>> Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth. >>> >> >> Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? >> I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just >> trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth. >> >>> And I am missing things I am sure. > > If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet). > > >>> I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps >>> ports. >>> >>> Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't >>> necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is >>> also close to zero dollars). >> >> >> I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly. > > I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much. > > In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. > I think that's much more reasonable. At $75/month, you barely cover the cost of managing the collection process. Owen > -- Nevin Lyne > -- Founder / Director of Technology > -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com > > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Andrew Hoyos

On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Andrew Hoyos wrote: >> Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G >> ports, not the current model of no charges ever. > > > Correct - my two cents on why this model works better: > > a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving more benefit for their $). > b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my experience) > c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to encourage more participants. > > I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve. Also, d.) keeps administrative burden low - no processing monthly invoices, payments, etc. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Andrew Hoyos

On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Jay Hanke wrote: >> It certainly makes the case for considering continuing the current model. >> Again, it comes down to evaluating costs. Jay's model seems to indicate >> that the non-recurring fees are the largest part of this model. It's also >> fair to assume this gear will be in service for more than one year. > > Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G > ports, not the current model of no charges ever. Correct - my two cents on why this model works better: a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving more benefit for their $). b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my experience) c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to encourage more participants. I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve. -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa(a)gmail.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

So let's assume we go this way, What would the ballpark pricing be on EX4200's and EX4500's be going forward? Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.7471 Office | 320.256.0178 Direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile ** NEW NUMBER ** | 320-256-7555 Fax *** Please update your address book with my new work email: mike.bushard(a)arvig.com *** -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:25 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade > This model has worked just fine for SIX (http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm) and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale. > > SFP = cost of GigE port > SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port > > And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm I'm open to this as well. SIX has been very successful. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012