July 2012 - mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Shaun Carlson

Nevin, that's a great breakdown and thanks. I'm still curious, however, as to what the actual underlying costs for the exchange are today... Does anyone have that data? s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Nevin Lyne <nevin(a)enginehosting.com>wrote: > I agree with others I don't think GigE port fees should be free, everyone > on the exchange is getting value. > > I am not directly connected to MICE myself, I have donated gear to get it > started, and I gain benefits from it every month. > > I would propose either quarterly or annual billing. > > GigE port = $225/quarter $900/annual ($75/month is the breakdown of course) > 10GE port = $600/quarter $2400/annual ($200/month is the breakdown here of > course :) > > 2nd port on on opposite 2nd switch for redundancy same price as first > port. Need more than 2nd GigE port move to 10GE not more GigE ports. > > I think ideal setup goal would be: > > 2 x EX4200 (96 GigE + each switch has optional 4 x GigE or 2 x 10GE port > expansion) > 2 x EX4500 (80 10GE + each switch has optional 2 x 4 port 10GE expansion > for total of 96 x 10GE) > > 25% occupation rate even across GigE & 10GE would be $1800 + 4800/month = > ~$80k annually > > 50% port occupation rate = ~$160k/yr > > 75% port occupation even across 100/1GE an 10GE ports is almost $250k/yr > > At the 25 to 50% port occupation levels there is easily enough income for > MICE to even branch to other MICE owned switches in logical area locations > that might be easier for some to cross connect into, sponsor tech events in > the area, 1 FTE to manage exchange work, etc. > > This would of course be outside any donations some might still make into > MICE, like I could easily see doing the equiv of a GigE port fee from my > own business as an indirect member of MICE to say I am a member of MICE on > my web site even. > > Seems logical, affordable and fairly easy to manage but just me. > > From a value stand point I pay 2x the above GigE port fee monthly for > parking in downtown Minneapolis and I get far more value from MICE then I > do the parking spot. > > -- Nevin Lyne > -- Founder / Director of Technology > -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com > > On Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25am, "Jay Hanke" < > jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> said: > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer(a)umn.edu> wrote: > > > >> Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. > However, > >> I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, > and > >> less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that > as > >> option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will > >> definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. > >> > > > > I propose starting CY 2013: > > > > -1st 10/100/1000 port free > > -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) > > -10G port ($2000/year) > > > > Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. > > Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to > > calendar billing. > > > > Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash > > donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. > > > > jay > > > > ######################################################################## > > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Nevin Lyne

I agree with others I don't think GigE port fees should be free, everyone on the exchange is getting value. I am not directly connected to MICE myself, I have donated gear to get it started, and I gain benefits from it every month. I would propose either quarterly or annual billing. GigE port = $225/quarter $900/annual ($75/month is the breakdown of course) 10GE port = $600/quarter $2400/annual ($200/month is the breakdown here of course :) 2nd port on on opposite 2nd switch for redundancy same price as first port. Need more than 2nd GigE port move to 10GE not more GigE ports. I think ideal setup goal would be: 2 x EX4200 (96 GigE + each switch has optional 4 x GigE or 2 x 10GE port expansion) 2 x EX4500 (80 10GE + each switch has optional 2 x 4 port 10GE expansion for total of 96 x 10GE) 25% occupation rate even across GigE & 10GE would be $1800 + 4800/month = ~$80k annually 50% port occupation rate = ~$160k/yr 75% port occupation even across 100/1GE an 10GE ports is almost $250k/yr At the 25 to 50% port occupation levels there is easily enough income for MICE to even branch to other MICE owned switches in logical area locations that might be easier for some to cross connect into, sponsor tech events in the area, 1 FTE to manage exchange work, etc. This would of course be outside any donations some might still make into MICE, like I could easily see doing the equiv of a GigE port fee from my own business as an indirect member of MICE to say I am a member of MICE on my web site even. Seems logical, affordable and fairly easy to manage but just me. From a value stand point I pay 2x the above GigE port fee monthly for parking in downtown Minneapolis and I get far more value from MICE then I do the parking spot. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com On Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25am, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> said: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer(a)umn.edu> wrote: > >> Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, >> I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and >> less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as >> option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will >> definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. >> > > I propose starting CY 2013: > > -1st 10/100/1000 port free > -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) > -10G port ($2000/year) > > Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. > Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to > calendar billing. > > Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash > donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. > > jay > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 22, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jeremy Lumby

As a small business owner that typically only exchanges an average max of a couple megabit per day on my 1 gig copper MICE port, I still feel I should be paying a maintenance fee. I can understand how free attracts new members, however maybe it should only be free for the first year. Lets face it, if anyone who is contemplating the fee would ever be a serious member, they know the costs associated with good network equipment, and the proper environment to run it in. From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Shaun Carlson Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:56 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade I guess that's what I was really asking. In understand the donations, etc... But what do those amount to (i.e. what are our true, underlying costs) The growth rate is important as well... I'd like to understand our past growth rate and then we should try to estimate our future growth rate so we can be sure to build in enough overhead to cover that. s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:40, "Mike Bushard, Jr" <mike.bushard(a)ARVIG.COM> wrote: I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com> wrote: What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like? s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: >> I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G >> connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though >> many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest >> that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) >> would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost >> of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining >> the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive >> for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think >> is better for the exchange and its participants. > > I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be > something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. > > Free is cool too, though :) > > -- > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Shaun Carlson

I guess that's what I was really asking. In understand the donations, etc... But what do those amount to (i.e. what are our true, underlying costs) The growth rate is important as well... I'd like to understand our past growth rate and then we should try to estimate our future growth rate so we can be sure to build in enough overhead to cover that. s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:40, "Mike Bushard, Jr" <mike.bushard(a)ARVIG.COM> wrote: > I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today. > > Mike Bushard Jr > | Network Engineer IV > | Arvig > | 320.256.0178 direct > | 320.429.0837 Mobile > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola > > Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. > > On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com> wrote: > What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like? > > s > > // SIGNED // > Shaun Carlson > --------------- > Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. > > On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G > >> connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though > >> many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest > >> that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) > >> would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost > >> of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining > >> the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive > >> for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think > >> is better for the exchange and its participants. > > > > I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be > > something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. > > > > Free is cool too, though :) > > > > -- > > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > > > ######################################################################## > > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com> wrote: > What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over > the past 24-36 months look like? > > s > > // SIGNED // > Shaun Carlson > --------------- > Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. > > On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G > >> connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though > >> many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest > >> that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) > >> would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost > >> of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining > >> the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive > >> for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think > >> is better for the exchange and its participants. > > > > I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be > > something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. > > > > Free is cool too, though :) > > > > -- > > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > > > ######################################################################## > > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Horwath

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 03:24:43PM -0500, Shaun Carlson wrote: > What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates > over the past 24-36 months look like? We've been running almost costless and revenueless (note: that's because of donations all over the place). To be sustainable this will need to change. Switches, cabling, people/time, marketing, law services - all of it has some kind of cost. Juniper letting us have things at a severe discount is great. What about the second EX4500? That's another $20K or so alone. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Shaun Carlson

What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like? s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)IPHOUSE.NET> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: >> I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G >> connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though >> many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest >> that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) >> would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost >> of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining >> the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive >> for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think >> is better for the exchange and its participants. > > I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be > something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. > > Free is cool too, though :) > > -- > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Horwath

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: > I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G > connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though > many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest > that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) > would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost > of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining > the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive > for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think > is better for the exchange and its participants. I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. Free is cool too, though :) -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

On Jul 21, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote: > on of the tricky things to coming up with a fee is the "what to include in the cost?" question. right now, MICE is making Stone Soup out of the time, energy, thought, leadership, connections, rack space and hardware of it's members. i bet that if one were to put a value on all of those things, we'd find that allocating that number across ports/bandwidth would result in a hefty number. > Initially, I'd say make sure that each connection is providing enough to cover the monthly costs associated with that connection (prorated share of space, power, maintenance contracts, etc.) plus a small contribution to a hardware reserve (the apportioned cost of replacing the hardware with new gear once every 5 years or so). Continued volunteer labor is sustainable for a while and is probably the best plan unless or until the exchange becomes large enough to consume at least one FTE. By that point, the incremental cost of adding an FTE divided by aggregate bandwidth probably doesn't result in a hefty fee increase. > one question -- is MICE ever likely to get to a point where it needs new/current gear? or can it live on cast-offs for a good long time yet? if cast offs will work, then i'd lobby for continuing that tradition so that the cooperative can continue as a zero-cost affair for as long as possible. MICE is already approaching the point where castoffs don't scale... Witness the current conversation around upgrading the Juniper gear. > > of course, guilt-tripping the orgs that don't pull their weight (pleas for cast-off gear, more help, more participation, etc.) would remain on the table. :-) > As a general rule, this only scales to a relatively small scale and is not reliably sustainable on a long-term basis. I would like to see the future of MICE be a little more certain than is possible with this mechanism. Owen > mikey > > PS, here's the wikipedia version of Stone Soup for those of you who haven't heard the tale before. > > Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the hungry travellers. Then the travellers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travellers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful, although it still needs a little bit of garnish to improve the flavour, which they are missing. The villager does not mind parting with a few carrots to help them out, so that gets added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travellers again mention their stone soup which has not reached its full potential yet. The villager hands them a little bit of seasoning to help them out. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient. Finally, a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by all. > - - - - - - - - - > phone 651-647-6109 > fax 866-280-2356 > web http://www.haven2.com > handle OConnorStP (ID for public places like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.) > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants. Owen On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:03 PM, Reid Fishler wrote: > There is no reason why a SMALL fee cannot be charged by the exchange to recover costs. This is not a for-profit enterprise, but I am sure $100-200 for the traffic most are getting beats anyones transit costs... > > Reid > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke(a)mankatonetworks.net> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend(a)he.net> wrote: > For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc. > > Agreed > > It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events. > > I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange. > > I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month. > > Here's a link: > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups/How-much-is-MICE-10G-3000346.S.91293159?qid=… > > The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness. > > My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees. > > Jay > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > > -- > Reid Fishler > Director > Hurricane Electric > +1-510-580-4178 > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 21, 2012