July 2012 - mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Jay Hanke

> I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and > that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what > a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member. Cross connects being the same for transit and peering. MICE Pricing 10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Shaun Carlson

Agreed, the bandwidth cost is a significant consideration here... don't forget that if the member is paying the cross-connect fee then we have to add that to our monthly cost calculation as well. s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson(a)arvig.com On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr <mike.bushard(a)arvig.com>wrote: > may ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Mike Bushard, Jr

>In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and >$500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge >higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if >revenue is more >than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to >fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member. Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.7471 Office | 320.256.0178 Direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile ** NEW NUMBER ** | 320-256-7555 Fax *** Please update your address book with my new work email: mike.bushard(a)arvig.com *** -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 1:57 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade >> Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth. >> > > Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? > I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just > trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth. > >> And I am missing things I am sure. If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet). >> I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps >> ports. >> >> Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't >> necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is >> also close to zero dollars). > > > I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly. I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much. In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Port Fees Model

by Mike Horwath

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 01:52:53PM -0500, Brian Mort wrote: > So you would only be a "voting" member of MICE if you have a direct > connect and pay fees then? Or would you then establish so type of > associate membership? A very good question. Only members with direct connections to MICE have voting rights. I don't think anyone has thought about associate membership, and Nevin even brought up paying a 'port fee' so he can use the information on his website. Thanks, something to mull over. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Matthew Beckwell

On Jul 23, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, > plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN. For anyone who's been "grandfathered" in (back in the good old days when all you had to do was justify)-- you pay $100 per year for maintenance, and that's it. So if you got your 6 "Class B" networks back in 1993, and still have them today-- you pay ARIN a grand total of $100 per year. If you got your /22 last year (like myself), then you pay $1,250 per year. ~Matthew ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Nevin Lyne

>> Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth. >> > > Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? > I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just > trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth. > >> And I am missing things I am sure. If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet). >> I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps >> ports. >> >> Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't >> necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is >> also close to zero dollars). > > > I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly. I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much. In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Port Fees Model

by Brian Mort

So you would only be a "voting" member of MICE if you have a direct connect and pay fees then? Or would you then establish so type of associate membership? On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 01:25:33PM -0500, Derek Hennekens wrote: > > How will the pricing model take in to account the customers that connect > > through remote switches? > > Whomever handles those remote switches probably will need to do their > own thing. > > ie: Nevin is my customer, MICE access is granted to all ipHouse > customers. Period. We won't be charging more. > > If Nevin wants to direct connect then that's fine and he'll pay MICE > for the privilege (and probably have me do the crossconnect which I'll > pass through). > > (an example, Nevin has his own voice and can speak up) > > -- > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > -- Brian Mort Network Engineer IV (ENA,ENS,ECDP) visit our website: arvig <http://www.arvig.com> (218) 346-8231 brian.mort(a)arvig.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Port Fees Model

by Mike Horwath

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 01:25:33PM -0500, Derek Hennekens wrote: > How will the pricing model take in to account the customers that connect > through remote switches? Whomever handles those remote switches probably will need to do their own thing. ie: Nevin is my customer, MICE access is granted to all ipHouse customers. Period. We won't be charging more. If Nevin wants to direct connect then that's fine and he'll pay MICE for the privilege (and probably have me do the crossconnect which I'll pass through). (an example, Nevin has his own voice and can speak up) -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:23 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:55:44AM -0500, Shaun Carlson wrote: >> Agreed, this will help us all understand the costs and ensure we're >> covering those and generating a reasonable surplus for equipment >> purchases, etc... > > Expect 200 hours of work from 'volunteers'. Easily. > > Expect at least $70K in hardware alone. (need spares at some point, > need maintenance contracts, need bird replacements if things break) > > yearly items: > > Expect at least $1200 for IP addresses plus another $500 for ASN. > Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN. > Expect at least ~$20K for colo fees (which MAY be waived by Cologix). > > Expect at least $2,400 for cross connect fees (which MAY be waived by > Cologix). > Other than members, what does the exchange XC to? Members should be paying the XC fees to connect to the exchange, IMHO. > Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth. > Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth. > And I am missing things I am sure. > > If this started up Jan, 2013 then we (MICE) would need, at least, > $100,000 to do the year (all revolves around the hardware for the bulk > of it if people keep volunteering time). > > There are also the UG meetings that need to be funded (even if someone > else ends up taking the stage for their donation). > > If there really was 75% usage of the ports as was laid out - the $250K > for the year in revenue would just about cover things. At that point, > with that many 'customers', there will be a need to pay people for > their work, volunteer won't cut it. Gear upgrades will need to be > planned out. Time spent by the steering committee and any > sub-committees (if formed and used) *may* need compensation as well. > > Then expansion has to happen. If $250K for 2013 happens, how does it > grow if that doesn't cover everything? I mean, yes, I'd love to see > this happen and it seems like a pipe dream. > > But all of this is a pipe dream. That's what makes it fun. > > I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps > ports. > > Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't > necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is > also close to zero dollars). I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012

Re: Juniper Upgrade

by Owen DeLong

On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:10:45AM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote: >> Numbers from ARIN (IP addresses currently from WIN/Airstream) > > THANKS! > > There is also ASN fees that were paid before I think. The annual maintenance for an ASN and IP addresses for an end user is one fee. They are not separate. For the time being, that's $100/year to cover both the IP address space and the ASN. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

July 23, 2012