October 2011 - mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Frank Bulk

Thanks for all the feedback -- it's as split as I anticipated. =) -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Steve Howard Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:38 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] New MICE Looking Glass On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found humor in it. > I can use DNS to figure out an area for the IP in question... > > I can enter said IP into a separate query afterwards to find an area in question... > > Which is faster for finding the info I am looking for? Be realistic. > > I have used DNS in my routers and switches since IOS supported such. Funny, so has Doug :) > > Sure, you can add latency to your output but it doesn't slow the packets down, and I sure as hell cannot memorize the Internet to figure out which city I am in or which provider I'm crossing. > > That extra few ms here and there still outruns copy/paste click submit every time. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no valid PTR record. > Yah, i know that sounds condescending but I don't know a better way to phrase this this morning. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE members or the internet community. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Owen DeLong

> >> Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR >> records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a >> while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't >> slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays >> the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several >> seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain >> timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really >> slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. > > A) if the DNS server is operational but without PTR records, it will > return immediately. > It is not unusual for the DNS server somewhere in the chain to be non-operational. Especially when you typo a Cisco command and it starts trying to open a telnet session. > B) if they are lame delegations then the provider should fix it and > not leave it broken. > In an ideal world, yes, but, not a big help when you're trying to troubleshoot something and usually outside of the control of the person doing the traceroute. > C) 5ms is always faster than 2 seconds to copy, change 'windows', > click your edit box, paste, return (or click submit). Or if you are > me, I'd queue up a dig or nslookup in a window then play the copy and > paste game and hit return - no finding the edit box, and the time > wasted will still be wasted. > True, but, the DNS timeout I experience from these issues is usually more like 30-90s and 2s is always faster than 30s or more. > Why your opinion MUST override mine baffles me. > I can't speak for the other guy, but, I'm trying to discuss the issues and ignore the personal offense/attacks and bickering. I'm not saying my opinion or experience should override yours. Just pointing out the issues from my experience with the mechanisms and reasoning you have put forth. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Akamai traffic

by Frank Bulk

There was discussion on NANOG today about Akamai usage spiking because of Apple iOS updates. I tried to find the graph on MICE's Cacti page to see if it saw the same spike, but if it's there I couldn't find it. Can someone point it out to me? Frank ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Owen DeLong

Personally, I'd vote for annual or quarterly rather than monthly in order to reduce the overhead in administering the fee collection process. In general, I think there are both startup and recurring costs that MICE incurs per connection. I would, therefore, suggest that we have an install and an periodic charge. Owen On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Jeremy Lumby wrote: > Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members? Something like $25/month for 1 Gig and $100/mo for 10Gig plus the one time cost of optics. If members do not want to take on these fees, they could possibly do some kind of donation of time, such as doing port moves/adds/changes. I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated, and some limits would need to be set (such as if a bunch of people wanted to do it, they would only be able to do so for a limited amount of time to allow others to have a chance as well). I can foresee a time when the recurring funds will need to be built up to purchase additional switches, pay for IP blocks directly from ARIN, and replace failed/old switches/route servers. I know that the donation of space, and power from FWR had a time limit on it, and those recurring costs will be coming up as well. I feel now is the time to plan ahead/save up some extra money so when those donations run out the exchange will not hit a brick wall with members that would be sticker shocked by how much it would take to keep it going. I think a little bit from every member over the years will add up to quite a bit by the time that some major expenses hit the exchange. By that point in time, I think small adjustments if any in the monthly fee would be much easier to swallow for the members. I think that anyone that realizes the value of the exchange would gladly pay to stay connected. I am sure that the recurring fees would never need to be more than the cost of the cross connect which we are already gladly paying for, and the more people that join, the higher the value of the exchange, and the smaller the cost on a per member basis. I do not think that the marketing of the exchange needs to be that it is of little to no cost, I believe it can be marketed as us sharing our knowledge of the benefits of the exchange with potential members, as well as making sure that they realize that the exchange exists. > > From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:45 PM > To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET > Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees > > > What is the funding model of the exchange now? > > I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) > > That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. > > Thanks, > > Jay > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: New MICE Looking Glass

by Mike Horwath

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:37:52AM -0500, Steve Howard wrote: > On 10/11/2011 09:14 AM, Mike Horwath wrote: > > This whole DNS thing on a router discussion is funny. > > It was a logical discussion to determine what is best for MICE. I'm > sorry if you find it insignificant, but I'm glad that you found > humor in it. I never said it was insignificant. You look for offense and you will find it. My opinion is that this is an over-optimization that leads to wasted time in other ways. Just my opinion; I am not setting any policies for MICE on this. > Do a traceroute that has a few hops that haven't set up their PTR > records properly. (Or in a VRF with no DNS, etc). You will wait a > while for each hop to resolve. You are correct in that it doesn't > slow the packets down on the network. However, it greatly delays > the time between packets. It changes from a few ms to several > seconds per hop (default timeout can be changed with "ip domain > timeout"). Add this up for a couple of hops and you must be really > slow at copy/paste for it to be worse. A) if the DNS server is operational but without PTR records, it will return immediately. B) if they are lame delegations then the provider should fix it and not leave it broken. C) 5ms is always faster than 2 seconds to copy, change 'windows', click your edit box, paste, return (or click submit). Or if you are me, I'd queue up a dig or nslookup in a window then play the copy and paste game and hit return - no finding the edit box, and the time wasted will still be wasted. Why your opinion MUST override mine baffles me. > I know that everyone should have all of their PTR records setup > properly, but it doesn't happen that way in the real world. I live in the real world, since 1990 when I joined the Internet, since 1993 when I fired up my first real ISP server with Doug one very late night. I ain't no fresh kid on this block. > > Perhaps a company could run dedicatd nameservers for their networking gear, or just run better nameservers on their infrastructure. > Dedicated/better name servers won't solve anything when there is no > valid PTR record. See results A and B above, one causes no issues, one needs to be fixed. > MICE is made up of many members that operate in different areas of > the "tech" industry. What may seem best for your particular > industry segment may not be the "best fit" for the majority of MICE > members or the internet community. No one said MICE had to abide by my rules and thought processes. If it did - we would have started charging for ports on day one as was discussed that very first day. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Hannigan, Martin

You need money to run the exchange. As long as there is benefit over transit or some financial basis with other reasons like reliability or performance, charging is perfectly reasonable. I’m on the board of two other not for profit IX’s and we are growing rapidly and we charge. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 8:46 PM, "Reid Fishler" <rfishler(a)HE.NET> wrote: I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)iphouse.net> wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote: > Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps > running it with a board elected by members (annual membership > dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. > This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and > encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in > the organization. There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Hannigan, Martin

Well, I haven't had a chance to pay them yet, but I will. :) I’ve been at NANOG+ARIN meeting in Philadelphia. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 4:44 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke(a)MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: What is the funding model of the exchange now? I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler(a)he.net> wrote: > I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want > people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more > value than more ASNs? The problem is one of bandwidth. Sometimes the donations come in really easy, sometimes they are a LOT of work. I would LOVE for someone to take over the money/contracts side so I could focus on membership... Maybe someone on the steering committee ;) Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Jay Hanke

> > > There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever > put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? > > Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. > > I'm currently the MICE god (LLC organizer) until the agreements are formalized. When some business comes up, the steering committee votes and then I execute the contract or whatever. I believe the SC and membership are in basic agreement but it needs to be written down. We REALLY need a participant with in-house legal or lawyer buddy to donate an afternoon. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011

Re: MICE Port Fees

by Reid Fishler

I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau(a)iphouse.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote: > > Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps > > running it with a board elected by members (annual membership > > dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. > > This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and > > encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in > > the organization. > > There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever > put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? > > Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. > > -- > Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau(a)iphouse.net > The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is > that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune > > ######################################################################## > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1

Oct. 13, 2011