As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch. I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500. http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/ The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches. After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any). MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home. We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member. Thanks, Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 04:52:15PM -0500, Jay Hanke wrote:
The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches.
Notice: maximum of 2 EX4500s per VC stack if I remember correctly. Also, you could have 2 EX4200s + 2 EX 4500s in a single stack as well. Or 8 EX4200s but I don't think we need that many 1Gbps ports.
We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member.
THANK YOU MEMBER! -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Notice: maximum of 2 EX4500s per VC stack if I remember correctly.
Up to 10 VC Members max, the links are individual 64 Gb/s PCI links 2 per switch or Nx10G from uplink modules on the front of the switch. LAG can span switches. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc. It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events. Owen On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch.
I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500.
http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/
The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches.
After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any).
MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home.
We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member.
Thanks,
Jay
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I agree with Owen From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:36 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc. It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events. Owen On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Hanke wrote: As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch. I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500. http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/ The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches. After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any). MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home. We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member. Thanks, Jay To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
This sounds like a great topic to revisit at our next MICE UG meeting. I seem to recall discussing this at the last one as well. s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Jeremy Lumby <jlumby@mnvoip.com> wrote:
** I agree with Owen
------------------------------ *From:* MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] *On Behalf Of *Owen DeLong *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2012 5:36 PM *To:* MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET *Subject:* Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
Owen
On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch.
I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500.
http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/
The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches.
After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any).
MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home.
We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member.
Thanks,
Jay
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I agree with Shaun that we should make this part of the next meeting. I think with the new 4500 switch(s) and also the member fee we should look at the future of "remote" switches also. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 20, 2012 7:08 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson@arvig.com> wrote:
This sounds like a great topic to revisit at our next MICE UG meeting. I seem to recall discussing this at the last one as well.
s
*Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Jeremy Lumby <jlumby@mnvoip.com> wrote:
** I agree with Owen
------------------------------ *From:* MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] *On Behalf Of *Owen DeLong *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2012 5:36 PM *To:* MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET *Subject:* Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
Owen
On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch.
I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500.
http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/
The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches.
After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any).
MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home.
We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member.
Thanks,
Jay
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On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend@he.net> wrote:
For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
Agreed
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange. I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month. Here's a link: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/How-much-is-MICE-10G-3000346.S.91293159?qid=528878c8-eb0a-4f03-acc9-cf525202f635&trk=group_most_recent_rich-0-b-ttl&goback=%2Egmr_3000346 The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness. My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
There is no reason why a SMALL fee cannot be charged by the exchange to recover costs. This is not a for-profit enterprise, but I am sure $100-200 for the traffic most are getting beats anyones transit costs... Reid On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke@mankatonetworks.net>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend@he.net> wrote:
For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
Agreed
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange.
I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month.
Here's a link:
The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness.
My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees.
Jay
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== On Jul 21, 2012, at 0:03, Reid Fishler <rfishler@HE.NET> wrote:
There is no reason why a SMALL fee cannot be charged by the exchange to recover costs. This is not a for-profit enterprise, but I am sure $100-200 for the traffic most are getting beats anyones transit costs...
Reid
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke@mankatonetworks.net> wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend@he.net> wrote: For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
Agreed
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange.
I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month.
Here's a link:
The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness.
My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees.
Jay
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On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote:
Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally.
I propose starting CY 2013: -1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year) Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing. Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Does MICE have a PayPal account or other means to accept electronic donations, or proposed maintenance fees? From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote: Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally. I propose starting CY 2013: -1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year) Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing. Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account. jay To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 09:40:00AM -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote:
Does MICE have a PayPal account or other means to accept electronic donations, or proposed maintenance fees?
I don't think so, no. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from the exchange also. Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 9:25 AM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@mankatonetworks.net> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote:
Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally.
I propose starting CY 2013:
-1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year)
Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing.
Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account.
jay
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On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:26:16AM -0500, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from the exchange also.
Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either.
Devils adovcate: why should there be a discount if you are using twice the constrained resources? -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 21, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Mike Horwath <drechsau@IPHOUSE.NET> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:26:16AM -0500, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
This seems fair to me, but we are obviously getting that kind of value from the exchange also.
Could we offer a discount on a second 10gig if its used for redundancy? Maybe that's to messy on not worth it either.
Devils adovcate:
why should there be a discount if you are using twice the constrained resources?
I would assume, in this case, the ports are the commodity, not any kind of bandwidth (exchanging, not transit). So discounts should not be considered. -- Jeremy Berg •Sent from my iPhone• ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I agree with others I don't think GigE port fees should be free, everyone on the exchange is getting value. I am not directly connected to MICE myself, I have donated gear to get it started, and I gain benefits from it every month. I would propose either quarterly or annual billing. GigE port = $225/quarter $900/annual ($75/month is the breakdown of course) 10GE port = $600/quarter $2400/annual ($200/month is the breakdown here of course :) 2nd port on on opposite 2nd switch for redundancy same price as first port. Need more than 2nd GigE port move to 10GE not more GigE ports. I think ideal setup goal would be: 2 x EX4200 (96 GigE + each switch has optional 4 x GigE or 2 x 10GE port expansion) 2 x EX4500 (80 10GE + each switch has optional 2 x 4 port 10GE expansion for total of 96 x 10GE) 25% occupation rate even across GigE & 10GE would be $1800 + 4800/month = ~$80k annually 50% port occupation rate = ~$160k/yr 75% port occupation even across 100/1GE an 10GE ports is almost $250k/yr At the 25 to 50% port occupation levels there is easily enough income for MICE to even branch to other MICE owned switches in logical area locations that might be easier for some to cross connect into, sponsor tech events in the area, 1 FTE to manage exchange work, etc. This would of course be outside any donations some might still make into MICE, like I could easily see doing the equiv of a GigE port fee from my own business as an indirect member of MICE to say I am a member of MICE on my web site even. Seems logical, affordable and fairly easy to manage but just me. From a value stand point I pay 2x the above GigE port fee monthly for parking in downtown Minneapolis and I get far more value from MICE then I do the parking spot. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com On Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25am, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@MANKATONETWORKS.NET> said:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote:
Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally.
I propose starting CY 2013:
-1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year)
Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing.
Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account.
jay
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Nevin, that's a great breakdown and thanks. I'm still curious, however, as to what the actual underlying costs for the exchange are today... Does anyone have that data? s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Nevin Lyne <nevin@enginehosting.com>wrote:
I agree with others I don't think GigE port fees should be free, everyone on the exchange is getting value.
I am not directly connected to MICE myself, I have donated gear to get it started, and I gain benefits from it every month.
I would propose either quarterly or annual billing.
GigE port = $225/quarter $900/annual ($75/month is the breakdown of course) 10GE port = $600/quarter $2400/annual ($200/month is the breakdown here of course :)
2nd port on on opposite 2nd switch for redundancy same price as first port. Need more than 2nd GigE port move to 10GE not more GigE ports.
I think ideal setup goal would be:
2 x EX4200 (96 GigE + each switch has optional 4 x GigE or 2 x 10GE port expansion) 2 x EX4500 (80 10GE + each switch has optional 2 x 4 port 10GE expansion for total of 96 x 10GE)
25% occupation rate even across GigE & 10GE would be $1800 + 4800/month = ~$80k annually
50% port occupation rate = ~$160k/yr
75% port occupation even across 100/1GE an 10GE ports is almost $250k/yr
At the 25 to 50% port occupation levels there is easily enough income for MICE to even branch to other MICE owned switches in logical area locations that might be easier for some to cross connect into, sponsor tech events in the area, 1 FTE to manage exchange work, etc.
This would of course be outside any donations some might still make into MICE, like I could easily see doing the equiv of a GigE port fee from my own business as an indirect member of MICE to say I am a member of MICE on my web site even.
Seems logical, affordable and fairly easy to manage but just me.
From a value stand point I pay 2x the above GigE port fee monthly for parking in downtown Minneapolis and I get far more value from MICE then I do the parking spot.
-- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com
On Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25am, "Jay Hanke" < jayhanke@MANKATONETWORKS.NET> said:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote:
Those are perfectly reasonable monthly numbers and not a problem. However, I know the University would prefer an annual charge. Less paperwork, and less accounting expenses, etc... So please make sure you provide that as option. Also, the University will probably want a contract and will definitely need an invoice, net 90 generally.
I propose starting CY 2013:
-1st 10/100/1000 port free -2nd 1G port ($1000/year) -10G port ($2000/year)
Newly paying members would pay for each full quarter they have service. Connect in June pay 50%, Connect in Jan pay 75%. They would then go on to calendar billing.
Accounting/billing to be figured out by the Steering Committee. Any cash donations between now and then will be applied to the member account.
jay
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Shaun Carlson <shaun.carlson@arvig.com>wrote:
Nevin, that's a great breakdown and thanks. I'm still curious, however, as to what the actual underlying costs for the exchange are today...
Does anyone have that data?
Zero, everything is donated or on loan. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I think the point of the question was "If MICE were to be actually paying for all of the currently donated/loaned equipment and services... what is that dollar amount?" On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 09:42 -0500, Jay Hanke wrote:
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Shaun Carlson <shaun.carlson@arvig.com> wrote:
Nevin, that's a great breakdown and thanks. I'm still curious, however, as to what the actual underlying costs for the exchange are today...
Does anyone have that data?
Zero, everything is donated or on loan.
Jay
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Justin Krejci <jkrejci@usinternet.com>wrote:
** I think the point of the question was
"If MICE were to be actually paying for all of the currently donated/loaned equipment and services... what is that dollar amount?"
It's somewhere between 15k and 20k per year not including capital for hardware, IP address acquisition or member labor. Keep in mind a $200/month cross connect swings the total $2400/year. The colo agreement is currently in negotiation, which is a major portion of the numbers above. I'm firmly in the "surplus" camp so our target should be above the numbers above. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I really think that once we know the outcome of the Cologix discussions we need to put a spread sheet together laying out the proposed costs and go over that at the next meeting. That gives everyone some time to think about how to approach the future needs and make some proposals as to how to deal with those needs. Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | *Arvig* | 320.256.7471 Office *From:* MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] *On Behalf Of *Jay Hanke *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2012 10:24 AM *To:* MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET *Subject:* Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Justin Krejci <jkrejci@usinternet.com> wrote: I think the point of the question was "If MICE were to be actually paying for all of the currently donated/loaned equipment and services... what is that dollar amount?" It's somewhere between 15k and 20k per year not including capital for hardware, IP address acquisition or member labor. Keep in mind a $200/month cross connect swings the total $2400/year. The colo agreement is currently in negotiation, which is a major portion of the numbers above. I'm firmly in the "surplus" camp so our target should be above the numbers above. Jay ------------------------------ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Agreed, this will help us all understand the costs and ensure we're covering those and generating a reasonable surplus for equipment purchases, etc... s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Mike Bushard, Jr <mike.bushard@arvig.com>wrote:
I really think that once we know the outcome of the Cologix discussions we need to put a spread sheet together laying out the proposed costs and go over that at the next meeting.
That gives everyone some time to think about how to approach the future needs and make some proposals as to how to deal with those needs.
Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | *Arvig*
| 320.256.7471 Office
*From:* MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] *On Behalf Of *Jay Hanke *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2012 10:24 AM
*To:* MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET *Subject:* Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Justin Krejci <jkrejci@usinternet.com> wrote:
I think the point of the question was
"If MICE were to be actually paying for all of the currently donated/loaned equipment and services... what is that dollar amount?"
It's somewhere between 15k and 20k per year not including capital for hardware, IP address acquisition or member labor. Keep in mind a $200/month cross connect swings the total $2400/year. The colo agreement is currently in negotiation, which is a major portion of the numbers above.
I'm firmly in the "surplus" camp so our target should be above the numbers above.
Jay
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:55:44AM -0500, Shaun Carlson wrote:
Agreed, this will help us all understand the costs and ensure we're covering those and generating a reasonable surplus for equipment purchases, etc...
Expect 200 hours of work from 'volunteers'. Easily. Expect at least $70K in hardware alone. (need spares at some point, need maintenance contracts, need bird replacements if things break) yearly items: Expect at least $1200 for IP addresses plus another $500 for ASN. Expect at least ~$20K for colo fees (which MAY be waived by Cologix). Expect at least $2,400 for cross connect fees (which MAY be waived by Cologix). Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth. And I am missing things I am sure. If this started up Jan, 2013 then we (MICE) would need, at least, $100,000 to do the year (all revolves around the hardware for the bulk of it if people keep volunteering time). There are also the UG meetings that need to be funded (even if someone else ends up taking the stage for their donation). If there really was 75% usage of the ports as was laid out - the $250K for the year in revenue would just about cover things. At that point, with that many 'customers', there will be a need to pay people for their work, volunteer won't cut it. Gear upgrades will need to be planned out. Time spent by the steering committee and any sub-committees (if formed and used) *may* need compensation as well. Then expansion has to happen. If $250K for 2013 happens, how does it grow if that doesn't cover everything? I mean, yes, I'd love to see this happen and it seems like a pipe dream. But all of this is a pipe dream. That's what makes it fun. I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps ports. Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is also close to zero dollars). -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:23 AM, Mike Horwath wrote:
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:55:44AM -0500, Shaun Carlson wrote:
Agreed, this will help us all understand the costs and ensure we're covering those and generating a reasonable surplus for equipment purchases, etc...
Expect 200 hours of work from 'volunteers'. Easily.
Expect at least $70K in hardware alone. (need spares at some point, need maintenance contracts, need bird replacements if things break)
yearly items:
Expect at least $1200 for IP addresses plus another $500 for ASN.
Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN.
Expect at least ~$20K for colo fees (which MAY be waived by Cologix).
Expect at least $2,400 for cross connect fees (which MAY be waived by Cologix).
Other than members, what does the exchange XC to? Members should be paying the XC fees to connect to the exchange, IMHO.
Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth.
Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth.
And I am missing things I am sure.
If this started up Jan, 2013 then we (MICE) would need, at least, $100,000 to do the year (all revolves around the hardware for the bulk of it if people keep volunteering time).
There are also the UG meetings that need to be funded (even if someone else ends up taking the stage for their donation).
If there really was 75% usage of the ports as was laid out - the $250K for the year in revenue would just about cover things. At that point, with that many 'customers', there will be a need to pay people for their work, volunteer won't cut it. Gear upgrades will need to be planned out. Time spent by the steering committee and any sub-committees (if formed and used) *may* need compensation as well.
Then expansion has to happen. If $250K for 2013 happens, how does it grow if that doesn't cover everything? I mean, yes, I'd love to see this happen and it seems like a pipe dream.
But all of this is a pipe dream. That's what makes it fun.
I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps ports.
Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is also close to zero dollars).
I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth.
Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth.
And I am missing things I am sure.
If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet).
I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps ports.
Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is also close to zero dollars).
I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly.
I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much. In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if >revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap.
I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member. Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.7471 Office | 320.256.0178 Direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile ** NEW NUMBER ** | 320-256-7555 Fax *** Please update your address book with my new work email: mike.bushard@arvig.com *** -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 1:57 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth.
Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth.
And I am missing things I am sure.
If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet).
I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps ports.
Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is also close to zero dollars).
I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly.
I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much. In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Agreed, the bandwidth cost is a significant consideration here... don't forget that if the member is paying the cross-connect fee then we have to add that to our monthly cost calculation as well. s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr <mike.bushard@arvig.com>wrote:
may
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I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member.
Cross connects being the same for transit and peering. MICE Pricing 10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member.
Cross connects being the same for transit and peering.
MICE Pricing
10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s
That's assuming you're doing a full GigE on MICE. For smaller folks, who are only doing 25-50-100mbps on the exchange, this quickly exceeds the price of transit. -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Cross connects being the same for transit and peering.
MICE Pricing
10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s
That's assuming you're doing a full GigE on MICE.
For smaller folks, who are only doing 25-50-100mbps on the exchange, this quickly exceeds the price of transit.
Most of the "good" deals on transit I've seen are at least 1000 mb/s commits. I haven't seen 100mb rates drop to the levels above. BTW, I wasn't advocating the pricing. I wanted to show that even the higher rates were still plausible when compared to transit. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 02:46:37PM -0500, Andrew Hoyos wrote:
On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member.
Cross connects being the same for transit and peering.
MICE Pricing
10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s
That's assuming you're doing a full GigE on MICE.
For smaller folks, who are only doing 25-50-100mbps on the exchange, this quickly exceeds the price of transit.
I've still got the Cisco 4500 sitting here. I'll subsidize the port fees on it FOREVER. But you wanna connect to core then pay core rates. <snicker> -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
If your using the full port that's correct. But who is using the full port capacity? The graphs show no one on a 10gig port is over 1Gig in the past 24 hours other than Akamai. If I look at it from Arvig's costs proposed at $200/mo for a 1gig plus the copper cross connect of $100/mo and our peak of 550meg that comes out to 55 cents a meg (300/550). I can add more bandwidth to our 10GigE upstreams without adding cross connect fees. So it's all in how much data is passed. The more Content networks we can add the better the value and the only real way I see the exchange growing over the long term. Maybe I'm short sighted, but I think the root of our upgrades and charges discussion needs to come down to growth of content network members and for that I am sure we need more eyeballs. Obviously others here are members of more than just MICE, would some care to share the structure of other IX's? maybe that helps us guide our model? Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:20 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member.
Cross connects being the same for transit and peering. MICE Pricing 10000 Mb/s for $750= $0.075 per mb/s 1000 Mb/s for $200= $0.20 per mb/s jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
Obviously others here are members of more than just MICE, would some care to share the structure of other IX's? maybe that helps us guide our model?
So I might be in the minority here, but I don't see the need to charge recurring fees, especially with the level of community involvement/donations we have seen with MICE. This model has worked just fine for SIX (http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm), and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale. SFP = cost of GigE port SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
That's an excellant point Andrew and a great example. It certainly makes the case for considering continuing the current model. Again, it comes down to evaluating costs. Jay's model seems to indicate that the non-recurring fees are the largest part of this model. It's also fair to assume this gear will be in service for more than one year. s *Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Hoyos <hoyosa@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
Obviously others here are members of more than just MICE, would some care to share the structure of other IX's? maybe that helps us guide our model?
So I might be in the minority here, but I don't see the need to charge recurring fees, especially with the level of community involvement/donations we have seen with MICE.
This model has worked just fine for SIX ( http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm), and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale.
SFP = cost of GigE port SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port
And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm
-- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com
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We have to assume there will always be donations, however we also have to assume that participants DO see value BESIDES just lowering costs...such as much lower latency. Reid On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Shaun Carlson <shaun.carlson@arvig.com>wrote:
That's an excellant point Andrew and a great example.
It certainly makes the case for considering continuing the current model. Again, it comes down to evaluating costs. Jay's model seems to indicate that the non-recurring fees are the largest part of this model. It's also fair to assume this gear will be in service for more than one year.
s
*Shaun Carlson *Senior Network Engineer | Arvig ph: (218) 346-8673 | contact: protocol.by/scarlson em: shaun.carlson@arvig.com
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Hoyos <hoyosa@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
Obviously others here are members of more than just MICE, would some care to share the structure of other IX's? maybe that helps us guide our model?
So I might be in the minority here, but I don't see the need to charge recurring fees, especially with the level of community involvement/donations we have seen with MICE.
This model has worked just fine for SIX ( http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm), and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale.
SFP = cost of GigE port SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port
And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm
-- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com
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It certainly makes the case for considering continuing the current model. Again, it comes down to evaluating costs. Jay's model seems to indicate that the non-recurring fees are the largest part of this model. It's also fair to assume this gear will be in service for more than one year.
Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G ports, not the current model of no charges ever. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
It certainly makes the case for considering continuing the current model. Again, it comes down to evaluating costs. Jay's model seems to indicate that the non-recurring fees are the largest part of this model. It's also fair to assume this gear will be in service for more than one year.
Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G ports, not the current model of no charges ever.
Correct - my two cents on why this model works better: a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving more benefit for their $). b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my experience) c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to encourage more participants. I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve. -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Andrew Hoyos wrote:
Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G ports, not the current model of no charges ever.
Correct - my two cents on why this model works better:
a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving more benefit for their $). b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my experience) c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to encourage more participants.
I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve.
Also, d.) keeps administrative burden low - no processing monthly invoices, payments, etc. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
The only problem I see with this is there is a slightly large hump for smaller ISP's to go over when they FIRST want to join and don't yet know the benefit... Reid On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Andrew Hoyos <hoyosa@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Andrew Hoyos wrote:
Actually, I think he's advocating charging a 5k setup fee for each 10G ports, not the current model of no charges ever.
Correct - my two cents on why this model works better:
a.) folks that are doing the traffic warranting hardware upgrades (ie: folks w/ 10G ports) are responsible for the cost (and they are deriving more benefit for their $). b.) non-recurring costs are a much easier sell to $MGMT (at least in my experience) c.) it keeps the entry cost into the IX low (xconnect + SFP) to encourage more participants.
I guess this is all assuming that the MICE recurring expenses would either be mostly covered by monetary donations, or in-kind by providers of those services. Any $ coming in from port costs mostly gets used for hardware upgrades as needed + a reserve.
Also,
d.) keeps administrative burden low - no processing monthly invoices, payments, etc.
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
The only problem I see with this is there is a slightly large hump for smaller ISP's to go over when they FIRST want to join and don't yet know the benefit...
I think the 1st GE is free, if you need a second you're running a lot of traffic. In this option I'd advocate charging the full 5k for adding a 2nd GE as well to encourage 10G rather than multiple 1Gs. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
This model has worked just fine for SIX (http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm), and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale.
SFP = cost of GigE port SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port
And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm
I'm open to this as well. SIX has been very successful. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
So let's assume we go this way, What would the ballpark pricing be on EX4200's and EX4500's be going forward? Mike Bushard, Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.7471 Office | 320.256.0178 Direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile ** NEW NUMBER ** | 320-256-7555 Fax *** Please update your address book with my new work email: mike.bushard@arvig.com *** -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:25 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
This model has worked just fine for SIX (http://www.seattleix.net/intro.htm), and they are operating on a MUCH larger scale.
SFP = cost of GigE port SFP + $5k = cost of 10GigE port
And no shortage of contributors: http://www.seattleix.net/contrib.htm
I'm open to this as well. SIX has been very successful. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Mike Bushard, Jr <mike.bushard@arvig.com> wrote:
If your using the full port that's correct. But who is using the full port capacity? The graphs show no one on a 10gig port is over 1Gig in the past 24 hours other than Akamai.
Again, the "high" pricing still isn't out of the ballpark, being close to transit pricing. You should also compare 10G to 10G as you're likely to blow through your 1G port anyway. :) I'd be interested to see alternative spreadsheets... Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 02:07:14PM -0500, Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if >revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap.
I think you have to consider what bandwidth can be had for today at 511, and that is sub $1/meg. If the cost of the port plus cross connect exceeds what a member can buy bandwidth for it may be hard to justify being a member.
I still like the $75 for 1Gbps ports and $200 for 10Gbps ports myself but I can convinced to make them higher. Jay already responded with the price per Mbps using the higher costs above. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Nevin Lyne <nevin@ENGINEHOSTING.COM> wrote:
Expect to pay something, someday for bandwidth.
Does the exchange buy bandwidth? If so, where and for what purpose? I'm not trying to challenge you here or say we shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand why an exchange point would need to buy bandwidth.
And I am missing things I am sure.
If I am not mistaken someone currently is providing bandwidth to feed the Akamai cluster, and its not the exchange itself that is paying for it (yet).
I move to $75 per month for 1Gbps ports, $200 per month for 10Gbps ports.
Those numbers seem fair and can support things today but won't necessarily allow for growth until the bank has some money (which is also close to zero dollars).
I think those are a bit on the low side, frankly.
I personally thought so too, but based on people seeming to keep referencing free to $10-20/month GigE ports, and a survey that showed 30% did not think a 10GE port had value an 70% said $150 would be reasonable, I was trying to maybe low ball this too much.
In my book I would probably like to see more in the $150-200/month GigE and $500-750/range for 10GE ports, but would rather see the Exchange charge higher for the first couple of years and lower it later if revenue is more than is needed after there is some actual track record of costs, needed to fully run this correctly and not simply on the cheap.
I think that's much more reasonable. At $75/month, you barely cover the cost of managing the collection process. Owen
-- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- Gippy's Internet Solutions, LLC. / EngineHosting.com
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On Jul 23, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN.
For anyone who's been "grandfathered" in (back in the good old days when all you had to do was justify)-- you pay $100 per year for maintenance, and that's it. So if you got your 6 "Class B" networks back in 1993, and still have them today-- you pay ARIN a grand total of $100 per year. If you got your /22 last year (like myself), then you pay $1,250 per year. ~Matthew ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:04 PM, Matthew Beckwell <matthewb@AITECH.NET> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
Uh, no... Not annually. Those are the one time fees (actually $1250 for the IPv4 and another $1250 for the IPv6, plus $500 for the ASN), but all of those roll into $100 per year in maintenance fees to ARIN.
For anyone who's been "grandfathered" in (back in the good old days when all you had to do was justify)-- you pay $100 per year for maintenance, and that's it.
Sort of... If you got "grandfathered" and haven't signed an LRSA to protect your resource status with ARIN, you don't pay anything even today. If you got "grandfathered" and have signed an LRSA or RSA, you pay $100 per year. If you are not "grandfathered", you paid a one-time fee when your assignment was issued and then you pay $100/year if you are an end-user (an exchange point is, to the best of my knowledge, an end-user for fee purposes).
So if you got your 6 "Class B" networks back in 1993, and still have them today-- you pay ARIN a grand total of $100 per year.
If you got your /22 last year (like myself), then you pay $1,250 per year.
That's for an ISP -- You are an ISP. There are different fees for ISPs than for end-users. Trust me, I am _VERY_ familiar with ARIN policies and fees. Owen
~Matthew
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Right now most everything is donated. I donated the first switch (ipHouse). Doug and Jay take care of switches, Doug has been doing the BGP setup. I still have one stats system running, USI has another (with weathermap laded). Nevin donated two physical servers that I set up got bird routers. Jay recruits people. Steve did DNS registration and hosting. FWR (now Cologix) gave/gives space and power. Nevin donates web space. And other things I missed. Our costs for Mice? -- Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
So what we would need to start then would be how much would that equipment have cost to purchase, how much is donated labor and etc. If MICE starts receiving 1/4 Million in annual revenue things would dramatically change. On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Mike Horwath <drechsau@iphouse.net> wrote:
Right now most everything is donated.
I donated the first switch (ipHouse).
Doug and Jay take care of switches, Doug has been doing the BGP setup.
I still have one stats system running, USI has another (with weathermap laded).
Nevin donated two physical servers that I set up got bird routers.
Jay recruits people.
Steve did DNS registration and hosting.
FWR (now Cologix) gave/gives space and power.
Nevin donates web space.
And other things I missed.
Our costs for Mice?
-- Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! ########################################################################
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 09:54:39AM -0500, Brian Mort wrote:
So what we would need to start then would be how much would that equipment have cost to purchase, how much is donated labor and etc. If MICE starts receiving 1/4 Million in annual revenue things would dramatically change.
So, EX4500 is ~20-22K each. EX4200 is ~4,500 each. To do what Nevin brought up has a capital cost of ~$60K not counting implementation time. Consider time to be ~$100 per hour minimum and ~80 hours were spent this year already. Rack is ~$1,300 (as was already mentioned) per month. There is a lot of fixation on things right now about 'what is MICE making' or 'how much does MICE need'. Nevin and Jay have both put out some items. Juniper is willing to do some donation upgrade stuff but will cost real dollars (under $5K with $3K maybe already donated). The point is - free ride is coming to a close, to grow MICE we need revenue for MICE. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Is there still a time limit on the FWR/Cologix space and power donation? We could start by assuming we need to take over a rack and 2 power circuits ourselves. $15,300 / Yr. If my price sheet is still accurate. ~Matthew -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:46 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade Right now most everything is donated. I donated the first switch (ipHouse). Doug and Jay take care of switches, Doug has been doing the BGP setup. I still have one stats system running, USI has another (with weathermap laded). Nevin donated two physical servers that I set up got bird routers. Jay recruits people. Steve did DNS registration and hosting. FWR (now Cologix) gave/gives space and power. Nevin donates web space. And other things I missed. Our costs for Mice? -- Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
The board is meeting with Cologix to explain how MICE is important to them. They do seem to get it... Reie On Jul 23, 2012 11:02 AM, "Matthew Beckwell" <matthewb@aitech.net> wrote:
Is there still a time limit on the FWR/Cologix space and power donation? We could start by assuming we need to take over a rack and 2 power circuits ourselves.
$15,300 / Yr. If my price sheet is still accurate.
~Matthew
-----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:46 AM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade
Right now most everything is donated.
I donated the first switch (ipHouse).
Doug and Jay take care of switches, Doug has been doing the BGP setup.
I still have one stats system running, USI has another (with weathermap laded).
Nevin donated two physical servers that I set up got bird routers.
Jay recruits people.
Steve did DNS registration and hosting.
FWR (now Cologix) gave/gives space and power.
Nevin donates web space.
And other things I missed.
Our costs for Mice?
-- Mike Horwath via iPad 2, electric boogaloo! ########################################################################
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On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 14:46 +0000, Mike Horwath wrote:
Right now most everything is donated.
I donated the first switch (ipHouse).
Doug and Jay take care of switches, Doug has been doing the BGP setup.
I still have one stats system running, USI has another (with weathermap laded).
Nevin donated two physical servers that I set up got bird routers.
Jay recruits people.
Steve did DNS registration and hosting.
FWR (now Cologix) gave/gives space and power.
Nevin donates web space.
And other things I missed.
Numbers from ARIN (IP addresses currently from WIN/Airstream)
Our costs for Mice?
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:10:45AM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
Numbers from ARIN (IP addresses currently from WIN/Airstream)
THANKS! There is also ASN fees that were paid before I think. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Mike Horwath wrote:
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:10:45AM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
Numbers from ARIN (IP addresses currently from WIN/Airstream)
THANKS!
There is also ASN fees that were paid before I think.
The annual maintenance for an ASN and IP addresses for an end user is one fee. They are not separate. For the time being, that's $100/year to cover both the IP address space and the ASN. Owen ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
on of the tricky things to coming up with a fee is the "what to include in the cost?" question. right now, MICE is making Stone Soup out of the time, energy, thought, leadership, connections, rack space and hardware of it's members. i bet that if one were to put a value on all of those things, we'd find that allocating that number across ports/bandwidth would result in a hefty number. one question -- is MICE ever likely to get to a point where it needs new/current gear? or can it live on cast-offs for a good long time yet? if cast offs will work, then i'd lobby for continuing that tradition so that the cooperative can continue as a zero-cost affair for as long as possible. of course, guilt-tripping the orgs that don't pull their weight (pleas for cast-off gear, more help, more participation, etc.) would remain on the table. :-) mikey PS, here's the wikipedia version of Stone Soup for those of you who haven't heard the tale before. Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the hungry travellers. Then the travellers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travellers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful, although it still needs a little bit of garnish to improve the flavour, which they are missing. The villager does not mind parting with a few carrots to help them out, so that gets added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travellers again mention their stone soup which has not reached its full potential yet. The villager hands them a little bit of seasoning to help them out. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient. Finally, a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by all. - - - - - - - - - phone 651-647-6109 fax 866-280-2356 web http://www.haven2.com handle OConnorStP (ID for public places like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.) ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Jul 21, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote:
on of the tricky things to coming up with a fee is the "what to include in the cost?" question. right now, MICE is making Stone Soup out of the time, energy, thought, leadership, connections, rack space and hardware of it's members. i bet that if one were to put a value on all of those things, we'd find that allocating that number across ports/bandwidth would result in a hefty number.
Initially, I'd say make sure that each connection is providing enough to cover the monthly costs associated with that connection (prorated share of space, power, maintenance contracts, etc.) plus a small contribution to a hardware reserve (the apportioned cost of replacing the hardware with new gear once every 5 years or so). Continued volunteer labor is sustainable for a while and is probably the best plan unless or until the exchange becomes large enough to consume at least one FTE. By that point, the incremental cost of adding an FTE divided by aggregate bandwidth probably doesn't result in a hefty fee increase.
one question -- is MICE ever likely to get to a point where it needs new/current gear? or can it live on cast-offs for a good long time yet? if cast offs will work, then i'd lobby for continuing that tradition so that the cooperative can continue as a zero-cost affair for as long as possible.
MICE is already approaching the point where castoffs don't scale... Witness the current conversation around upgrading the Juniper gear.
of course, guilt-tripping the orgs that don't pull their weight (pleas for cast-off gear, more help, more participation, etc.) would remain on the table. :-)
As a general rule, this only scales to a relatively small scale and is not reliably sustainable on a long-term basis. I would like to see the future of MICE be a little more certain than is possible with this mechanism. Owen
mikey
PS, here's the wikipedia version of Stone Soup for those of you who haven't heard the tale before.
Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the hungry travellers. Then the travellers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travellers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful, although it still needs a little bit of garnish to improve the flavour, which they are missing. The villager does not mind parting with a few carrots to help them out, so that gets added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travellers again mention their stone soup which has not reached its full potential yet. The villager hands them a little bit of seasoning to help them out. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient. Finally, a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by all. - - - - - - - - - phone 651-647-6109 fax 866-280-2356 web http://www.haven2.com handle OConnorStP (ID for public places like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.)
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I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants. Owen On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:03 PM, Reid Fishler wrote:
There is no reason why a SMALL fee cannot be charged by the exchange to recover costs. This is not a for-profit enterprise, but I am sure $100-200 for the traffic most are getting beats anyones transit costs...
Reid
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Jay Hanke <jayhanke@mankatonetworks.net> wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Owen DeLong <owend@he.net> wrote: For MICE to be viable as an exchange long term, connections to MICE need to cover upgrades like this as well as maintenance, etc.
Agreed
It's great that people are willing to donate hardware/money, but, I would like to see MICE develop a longer-term view of its own financial support where all members pay a fair share and we should be building up a reserve that can initially purchase any needed hardware that MICE doesn't own and later can provide for unforseen events.
I have proposed to a number of members charging monthly or annually for 10G connections. The idea being that if you really need XE you're getting quite a bit of value from the exchange.
I posted a poll on the linked in page and was rather taken back that ~30% felt there was no $ value in 10G ports. On the flip side, 70% thought a MICE 10G port was worth at least $150/month.
Here's a link:
The last part of your statement is also very important. Being able to address things for we have failed to plan without affecting the service the exchange provides is critical to our ongoing usefulness.
My back of the napkin, assuming we're paying for everything, puts us at an annual recurring need of about 15k. This doesn't include purchase of the initial switch and initial end-user ARIN address fees.
Jay
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On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants.
I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority. Free is cool too, though :) -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like? s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau@IPHOUSE.NET> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants.
I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority.
Free is cool too, though :)
-- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune
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On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 03:24:43PM -0500, Shaun Carlson wrote:
What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like?
We've been running almost costless and revenueless (note: that's because of donations all over the place). To be sustainable this will need to change. Switches, cabling, people/time, marketing, law services - all of it has some kind of cost. Juniper letting us have things at a severe discount is great. What about the second EX4500? That's another $20K or so alone. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson@arvig.com> wrote:
What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like?
s
// SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device.
On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau@IPHOUSE.NET> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants.
I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority.
Free is cool too, though :)
-- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune
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I guess that's what I was really asking. In understand the donations, etc... But what do those amount to (i.e. what are our true, underlying costs) The growth rate is important as well... I'd like to understand our past growth rate and then we should try to estimate our future growth rate so we can be sure to build in enough overhead to cover that. s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:40, "Mike Bushard, Jr" <mike.bushard@ARVIG.COM> wrote:
I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today.
Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile
Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola
Please excuse short responses and spelling errors.
On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson@arvig.com> wrote: What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like?
s
// SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device.
On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau@IPHOUSE.NET> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants.
I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority.
Free is cool too, though :)
-- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune
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As a small business owner that typically only exchanges an average max of a couple megabit per day on my 1 gig copper MICE port, I still feel I should be paying a maintenance fee. I can understand how free attracts new members, however maybe it should only be free for the first year. Lets face it, if anyone who is contemplating the fee would ever be a serious member, they know the costs associated with good network equipment, and the proper environment to run it in. From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Shaun Carlson Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:56 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Juniper Upgrade I guess that's what I was really asking. In understand the donations, etc... But what do those amount to (i.e. what are our true, underlying costs) The growth rate is important as well... I'd like to understand our past growth rate and then we should try to estimate our future growth rate so we can be sure to build in enough overhead to cover that. s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:40, "Mike Bushard, Jr" <mike.bushard@ARVIG.COM> wrote: I think we need to look at what the costs should be, not what they are today. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 21, 2012 3:24 PM, "Shaun Carlson" <shaun.carlson@arvig.com> wrote: What are MICE's current operating costs and what do the growth rates over the past 24-36 months look like? s // SIGNED // Shaun Carlson --------------- Please excuse my grammar and typos, this was sent from my mobile device. On Jul 21, 2012, at 15:20, Mike Horwath <drechsau@IPHOUSE.NET> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:13:49PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
I would not want to see the 10G customers subsidizing free 1G connections. I have no problem with the idea of $150/10G (though many would likely prefer an annual $1,800). However, I would suggest that if you are charging $150/10G, at least $20/1G ($240/1G/yr) would also be appropriate. (IIRC, the 10G ports are not 10x the cost of the 1G ports and there's some amount of overhead for maintaining the account, etc. This would also serve as somewhat of an incentive for people to move to 10G instead of multiple 1G ports which I think is better for the exchange and its participants.
I've always thought the idea of charging for the 1Gbps ports to be something that should be done but originally I was in the minority.
Free is cool too, though :)
-- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune
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It would be good to have a second switch for redundancy also. Mike Bushard Jr | Network Engineer IV | Arvig | 320.256.0178 direct | 320.429.0837 Mobile Sent from my Verizon Wireless DROID RAZR by Motorola Please excuse short responses and spelling errors. On Jul 20, 2012 4:52 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@mankatonetworks.net> wrote:
As you may be aware, a waiting list is starting to form for 10G ports on the main switch. The Juniper switches in the core are on long term demo and will need to be returned to the pool at some point. In addition, there are members that are looking for 10G LAG connections to the main switch.
I talked to Juniper and they will allow us to swap our existing stack of EX4200's for a steeply discounted EX4500.
http://www.juniper.net/us/en/products-services/switching/ex-series/ex4500/
The new switch would give us 40 1G/10G ports and the ability to add additional shelves in the future with 128 Gb/s VC uplinks. If there was sufficient interest and support I believe we could deploy a set out of the gate to provide redundancy. The plan would be to move anyone with a FastEthernet connection to one of the remote switches.
After the trade in, the cost to MICE would be $4485 + $1158 (Next Day Support) + any sales taxes (if any).
MICE would own the switch. None of the current switches are owned by MICE and their use is at the whim of their respective owners. This would prevent any of the members from taking their ball and going home.
We already have a pledge of $3000 for the upgrade from an existing MICE member.
Thanks,
Jay
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participants (15)
-
Andrew Hoyos -
Brian Mort -
David Farmer -
Jay Hanke -
Jeremy Berg -
Jeremy Lumby -
Justin Krejci -
Matthew Beckwell -
Mike Bushard, Jr -
Mike Horwath -
Mike O'Connor -
Nevin Lyne -
Owen DeLong -
Reid Fishler -
Shaun Carlson