There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week. There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle. Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX: https://www.seattleix.net/join This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden. Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
------------------------------
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
I’ve typically been pretty silent on matters of MICE, but we at CNS are very supportive of the effort and thank everyone for everything they do to keep the exchange working. I’m of the opinion that we should be paying *monthly* fees for ports to keep the exchange solvent. One-time fees are nice, but monthly fees might be necessary. Thanks, Dean From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Reid Fishler Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:47 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] One-time port fees SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden. Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net <mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net> > wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week. There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle. Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX: https://www.seattleix.net/join This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 <tel:%28507%29%20327-2398> mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net <mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net> www.neutralpath.net <http://www.neutralpath.net> _____ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS <http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1> &A=1 -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 _____ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS <http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1> &A=1
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal... On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
------------------------------
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
Do you mean 1Gbps $200/year ? From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Steve Howard Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:28 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] One-time port fees Here is a starting point for a discussion: 1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill. All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't. End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000. On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal... On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden. Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week. There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle. Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX: https://www.seattleix.net/join This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178 To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Hopefully there is news about the NFP status at the board/usergroup meeting, that I hope you all will be at next week! Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Steve Howard <showard@paulbunyan.net> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 <%28507%29%20327-2398> mobile <jayhanke@neutralpath.net>jayhanke@neutralpath.net <http://www.neutralpath.net>www.neutralpath.net
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile <jayhanke@neutralpath.net>jayhanke@neutralpath.net <http://www.neutralpath.net>www.neutralpath.net
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes. Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex. On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET<mailto:showard@paulbunyan.net>> wrote: Here is a starting point for a discussion: 1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill. All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't. End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000. On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal... On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net<mailto:rfishler@he.net>> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden. Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net<mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net>> wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week. There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle. Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX: https://www.seattleix.net/join<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.seattleix.net_join&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=FfbQdpjHipcXJyW_3PPCobx8xoP-9pdECiGWz43Ucr8&e=> This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE. -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398<tel:%28507%29%20327-2398> mobile <mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net>jayhanke@neutralpath.net<mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=>www.neutralpath.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=> ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.iphouse.net_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FSUBED1-3DMICE-2DDISCUSS-26A-3D1&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=osh3Ph75zFdSECAvZEQq6k94qJtElusBItJ3mSnamWY&e=> -- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178<tel:%2B1-510-580-4178> ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.iphouse.net_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FSUBED1-3DMICE-2DDISCUSS-26A-3D1&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=osh3Ph75zFdSECAvZEQq6k94qJtElusBItJ3mSnamWY&e=> -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile <mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net>jayhanke@neutralpath.net<mailto:jayhanke@neutralpath.net> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=>www.neutralpath.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=> ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.iphouse.net_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FSUBED1-3DMICE-2DDISCUSS-26A-3D1&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=osh3Ph75zFdSECAvZEQq6k94qJtElusBItJ3mSnamWY&e=> ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.iphouse.net_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FSUBED1-3DMICE-2DDISCUSS-26A-3D1&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=osh3Ph75zFdSECAvZEQq6k94qJtElusBItJ3mSnamWY&e=>
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around. -- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
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I found this from 2012 in the archives. Could the board take a crack at this with updated data, and send along for input to members? I think this will paint a good picture of what the actual costs are.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Andrew Hoyos <hoyosa@gmail.com> wrote:
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around.
-- Andrew Hoyos hoyosa@gmail.com
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
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Thus spake Andrew Hoyos (hoyosa@GMAIL.COM) on Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 02:35:54PM -0500:
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around.
yep, this. My other comment is that our org can typically pay invoices, but not make donations nor become legal "members". Hopefully the sustainability model could account for this. Dale (w/ AS3128 hat on)
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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Dale, you raise an interesting point. If your organization cannot be a legal member... We should double-check that the bylaws don't automatically make you a member and count you towards quorum. -- Richard
Thus spake Richard Laager (rlaager@WIKTEL.COM) on Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 02:56:56PM -0500:
Dale, you raise an interesting point. If your organization cannot be a legal member... We should double-check that the bylaws don't automatically make you a member and count you towards quorum.
WI State Statute 36.585(3) for those of you playing lawyer at home ;-) Dale
IIRC, the discussions last time several years back broke down as to include colo rent costs and how much to budget for a new kit every 36 months. If you exclude rent, equipment purchase and nfp legal fees, all of the other costs are currently very small (support and ARIN fees). Support is running about 1900 Annually for 1 EX4200 and one EX4500. I'm not sure how the EX4550 is currently handled support wise. IMHO, we should budget to build a up a reserve to get to $20k in the next 12 months. I could be persuaded up or down on the number. I looked at "pizza box" 100g switches and I believe we get something into service for around 13k + support. We'd end up with 5k to cover ongoing legal and nfp accounting expenses. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Dale W. Carder <dwcarder@wisc.edu> wrote:
Thus spake Andrew Hoyos (hoyosa@GMAIL.COM) on Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 02:35:54PM -0500:
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around.
yep, this.
My other comment is that our org can typically pay invoices, but not make donations nor become legal "members". Hopefully the sustainability model could account for this.
Dale (w/ AS3128 hat on)
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier
jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in
Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
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The amount of money we need depends upon our success. The point right now is that we need SOMETHING in the bank to not have to beg every time there is an emergency. I think we are beyond that. Reid On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
IIRC, the discussions last time several years back broke down as to include colo rent costs and how much to budget for a new kit every 36 months.
If you exclude rent, equipment purchase and nfp legal fees, all of the other costs are currently very small (support and ARIN fees).
Support is running about 1900 Annually for 1 EX4200 and one EX4500. I'm not sure how the EX4550 is currently handled support wise.
IMHO, we should budget to build a up a reserve to get to $20k in the next 12 months. I could be persuaded up or down on the number. I looked at "pizza box" 100g switches and I believe we get something into service for around 13k + support. We'd end up with 5k to cover ongoing legal and nfp accounting expenses.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Dale W. Carder <dwcarder@wisc.edu> wrote:
Thus spake Andrew Hoyos (hoyosa@GMAIL.COM) on Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 02:35:54PM -0500:
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around.
yep, this.
My other comment is that our org can typically pay invoices, but not make donations nor become legal "members". Hopefully the sustainability model could account for this.
Dale (w/ AS3128 hat on)
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote: SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier
jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in
Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
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On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
The amount of money we need depends upon our success. The point right now is that we need SOMETHING in the bank to not have to beg every time there is an emergency. I think we are beyond that.
That's one of the reasons I like the one time fees. As ports are added, the reserve grows to cover replacement/upgrade.
+1, but beyond emergencies, cover incidental meeting expenses, a small marketing budget. It would be nice to be able to pay our own way for a meeting room at the Hyatt during the MTA show if we need to. No dancing girls or fancy dinners, but some signage and/or booth banner like thing, brochures, pens, maybe some T-Shirts or other logowear (maybe a logowear store). On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
The amount of money we need depends upon our success. The point right now is that we need SOMETHING in the bank to not have to beg every time there is an emergency. I think we are beyond that.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
IIRC, the discussions last time several years back broke down as to include colo rent costs and how much to budget for a new kit every 36 months.
If you exclude rent, equipment purchase and nfp legal fees, all of the other costs are currently very small (support and ARIN fees).
Support is running about 1900 Annually for 1 EX4200 and one EX4500. I'm not sure how the EX4550 is currently handled support wise.
IMHO, we should budget to build a up a reserve to get to $20k in the next 12 months. I could be persuaded up or down on the number. I looked at "pizza box" 100g switches and I believe we get something into service for around 13k + support. We'd end up with 5k to cover ongoing legal and nfp accounting expenses.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Dale W. Carder <dwcarder@wisc.edu> wrote:
Thus spake Andrew Hoyos (hoyosa@GMAIL.COM) on Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 02:35:54PM -0500:
+1 on this. Discussing port fees is irrelevant until it’s understood what needs to go back out opex wise (perhaps including some 5-7 year equipment refresh, etc). I seem to recall a spreadsheet that had this broken out at some point, floating around.
yep, this.
My other comment is that our org can typically pay invoices, but not make donations nor become legal "members". Hopefully the sustainability model could account for this.
Dale (w/ AS3128 hat on)
On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: > I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal... > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> > wrote: > SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early > exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of > their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees > would suddenly make us golden. > > Reid > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke > <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote: > There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier > this week. > > There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in > Seattle. > > Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX: > > https://www.seattleix.net/join > > This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE. > > -- > Jay Hanke > CTO > Neutral Path Communications > 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 > Mankato, MN 56001 > (507) 327-2398 mobile > jayhanke@neutralpath.net > www.neutralpath.net > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following > link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > > -- > Reid Fishler > Director > Hurricane Electric > +1-510-580-4178 > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following > link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 > > > > > -- > Jay Hanke > CTO > Neutral Path Communications > 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 > Mankato, MN 56001 > (507) 327-2398 mobile > jayhanke@neutralpath.net > www.neutralpath.net > > To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following > link: > http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 >
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
________________________________
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-- Reid Fishler Director Hurricane Electric +1-510-580-4178
________________________________
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-- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================
Actually, the NFP process and equipment costs are by far the largest killers. MICE has less than $2500 in annual opex if you exclude the NFP legal fees. We almost had to stop adding members last year due to running out of ports. All of the other things have been inkind (printing/pins/website etc) Keep in mind that we haven't had a checkbook since 2014. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@akamai.com> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET <showard@paulbunyan.net>> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.seattleix.net_join&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=FfbQdpjHipcXJyW_3PPCobx8xoP-9pdECiGWz43Ucr8&e=>
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile <jayhanke@neutralpath.net>jayhanke@neutralpath.net
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=> www.neutralpath.net <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.neutralpath.net&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=3xHxusrBHXkEaO3pGoJiy9uzFuGHg-AntCCMjXpIo_U&e=>
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Rough model attached. Intended to be played with and modified. Note, I didn't increase the support costs (counted as part of opex) after the upgrade. We should account for that but after we get a couple of 100G going life seems easier... On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
Actually, the NFP process and equipment costs are by far the largest killers.
MICE has less than $2500 in annual opex if you exclude the NFP legal fees. We almost had to stop adding members last year due to running out of ports. All of the other things have been inkind (printing/pins/website etc)
Keep in mind that we haven't had a checkbook since 2014.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Hannigan, Martin <marty@akamai.com> wrote:
Why don't you start with a budget and then fund it? Maybe thats $50 per user. Maybe not. Did we ever kick out an operating budget? I'd guess yes.
Port expense is not the killer here. Its cash flow and opex.
On Jun 16, 2016, at 15:28, Steve Howard <showard@PAULBUNYAN.NET <showard@paulbunyan.net>> wrote:
Here is a starting point for a discussion:
1Gbps $200/month 10Gbps $1000/year
Everybody invoiced ANNUALLY. First year/partial year free. i.e. Whoever is active on January 1 gets a bill.
All amounts are suggested donations (for now). i.e. You won't be disconnected if you don't pay (yet). However that could change at any time. Especially if we run out of ports, in that case the members who have historically paid for their port(s) take precedence over those who haven't.
End users of remote switches pay as above. Remote switches do not pay as long as their end users pay enough to make up for the ports used by the remote switch. For example, the CNS switch has 3x10Gbps ports connecting to the main MICE switch. The five CNS end users pay $1,000 each, this covers the $3,000 cost of the three ports to the CNS switch. If CNS has only two users paying $1,000 each, then CNS would owe $1,000.
On 06/16/2016 01:53 PM, Jason Hanke wrote:
I'm quietly awaiting a counter proposal...
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
SIX also has a ton of donations coming in. They were a VERY early exchange out there. They did what they did VERY well, and we use some of their structure in MICE. But lets not think that single one time port fees would suddenly make us golden.
Reid
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Jason Hanke <jayhanke@neutralpath.net> wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk regarding port fees at NANOG earlier this week.
There was also seemingly universal accolades going to the SiX in Seattle.
Here is the schedule of fees at the SiX:
https://www.seattleix.net/join <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.seattleix.net_join&d=DQMDaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=XDN_BIPGnpb6V0w5M9FADw&m=XVtcCIiG5nf-3QYZnWK_Y8qFEC9zwcLVF3puTo21OeE&s=FfbQdpjHipcXJyW_3PPCobx8xoP-9pdECiGWz43Ucr8&e=>
This may be a reasonable starting point for MICE.
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-- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke@neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Richard Laager <rlaager@wiktel.com> wrote:
On 06/16/2016 02:27 PM, Steve Howard wrote:
End users of remote switches pay as above.
Can you elaborate on why you want it this way? As opposed to: the remote switch operator pays for the MICE ports, and it's their business how to recover that.
+1 to Richard. As I see it the port fees are covering the maintenance and augmentations of the main switch. Having the remote operators with varying financial terms is good for the ecosystem. Also, the remotes have agreed to cover the (hopefully non-blocking) transport back to MICE so they should have a way to recover their costs should they choose.
participants (10)
-
Andrew Hoyos -
Dale W. Carder -
David Farmer -
Dean Bahls -
Hannigan, Martin -
Jason Hanke -
Jeremy Lumby -
Reid Fishler -
Richard Laager -
Steve Howard