I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic) We would use the money to operate the exchange. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
What is the funding model of the exchange now? Best, -M< On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch. Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic) We would use the money to operate the exchange. Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I believe so far, the funding model has been corporate and personal largess. Said funding model does not scale and I think the fees proposed are quite reasonable. I say this personally. I have not yet discussed the matter with my colleagues at HE. Owen Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2011, at 16:32, "Hannigan, Martin" <marty@AKAMAI.COM> wrote:
What is the funding model of the exchange now?
Best,
-M<
On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote:
I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch.
Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic)
We would use the money to operate the exchange.
Jay
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What is the funding model of the exchange now?
I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members? Something like $25/month for 1 Gig and $100/mo for 10Gig plus the one time cost of optics. If members do not want to take on these fees, they could possibly do some kind of donation of time, such as doing port moves/adds/changes. I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated, and some limits would need to be set (such as if a bunch of people wanted to do it, they would only be able to do so for a limited amount of time to allow others to have a chance as well). I can foresee a time when the recurring funds will need to be built up to purchase additional switches, pay for IP blocks directly from ARIN, and replace failed/old switches/route servers. I know that the donation of space, and power from FWR had a time limit on it, and those recurring costs will be coming up as well. I feel now is the time to plan ahead/save up some extra money so when those donations run out the exchange will not hit a brick wall with members that would be sticker shocked by how much it would take to keep it going. I think a little bit from every member over the years will add up to quite a bit by the time that some major expenses hit the exchange. By that point in time, I think small adjustments if any in the monthly fee would be much easier to swallow for the members. I think that anyone that realizes the value of the exchange would gladly pay to stay connected. I am sure that the recurring fees would never need to be more than the cost of the cross connect which we are already gladly paying for, and the more people that join, the higher the value of the exchange, and the smaller the cost on a per member basis. I do not think that the marketing of the exchange needs to be that it is of little to no cost, I believe it can be marketed as us sharing our knowledge of the benefits of the exchange with potential members, as well as making sure that they realize that the exchange exists. From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:45 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees What is the funding model of the exchange now? I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 17:19 -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote:
Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members?
I think it would be wise to start with a list of expenses, including the frequency and amount. That should make it easy to develop the recurring and/or non-recurring fees to charge members. It will also provide transparency, versus just (appearing to be) pulling numbers out of the air.
I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated
I would recommend assuming all labor will be donated. That can be revisited later, if needed, but focusing on only cash outflows will keep the complexity to a minimum. Does the MICE LLC have non-profit status with the relevant government agencies? Richard ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps running it with a board elected by members (annual membership dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in the organization. Having a board would also allow for positions such as Treasurer, VP, and President who could help steer things in an organized way. What's been going on thus far has worked, but it seems apparent MICE is growing and beginning to have some growing pains, even if only in terms of donated time/resources running out. Having a treasurer that can report on current expenses, upcoming expenses, and account balances would also help keep tabs on resources. As Richard suggested, labor could always expect to be donated. Other associations I'm a member of operate in a similar manner and have proved successful. The hardest part in the long-run is getting people to participate. Maybe annual membership dues and a rotating list of donated time. (Company X and company Y installed the switches, next on the list is company Z.) Just my 2¢. --- Eric F Crist System Administrator ClaimLynx, Inc (952) 593-5969 x2301 On Oct 12, 2011, at 17:57:38, Richard Laager wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 17:19 -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote:
Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members?
I think it would be wise to start with a list of expenses, including the frequency and amount. That should make it easy to develop the recurring and/or non-recurring fees to charge members. It will also provide transparency, versus just (appearing to be) pulling numbers out of the air.
I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated
I would recommend assuming all labor will be donated. That can be revisited later, if needed, but focusing on only cash outflows will keep the complexity to a minimum.
Does the MICE LLC have non-profit status with the relevant government agencies?
Richard
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On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote:
Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps running it with a board elected by members (annual membership dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in the organization.
There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau@iphouse.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote:
Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps running it with a board elected by members (annual membership dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in the organization.
There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay?
Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today.
-- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune
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On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Reid Fishler <rfishler@he.net> wrote:
I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs?
The problem is one of bandwidth. Sometimes the donations come in really easy, sometimes they are a LOT of work. I would LOVE for someone to take over the money/contracts side so I could focus on membership... Maybe someone on the steering committee ;) Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
You need money to run the exchange. As long as there is benefit over transit or some financial basis with other reasons like reliability or performance, charging is perfectly reasonable. I’m on the board of two other not for profit IX’s and we are growing rapidly and we charge. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 8:46 PM, "Reid Fishler" <rfishler@HE.NET> wrote: I feel that charging is going to stop people from joining...if we want people to join to add value to the exchange, is the money going to add more value than more ASNs? Reid On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Mike Horwath <drechsau@iphouse.net> wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Eric Crist wrote:
Is there some sort of board or hierarchy within MICE now? Perhaps running it with a board elected by members (annual membership dues??) who can then 'take ownership' for their term of some things. This would help alleviate burn-out of contributing members, and encourage folks to participate and have a somewhat 'static' role in the organization.
There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay? Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today. -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
There are 3 of us on the steering committee. I don't know if Jay ever put together an official board for the non-profit. Jay?
Jay, Reid, myself are the steering committee today.
I'm currently the MICE god (LLC organizer) until the agreements are formalized. When some business comes up, the steering committee votes and then I execute the contract or whatever. I believe the SC and membership are in basic agreement but it needs to be written down. We REALLY need a participant with in-house legal or lawyer buddy to donate an afternoon. Jay ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Personally, I'd vote for annual or quarterly rather than monthly in order to reduce the overhead in administering the fee collection process. In general, I think there are both startup and recurring costs that MICE incurs per connection. I would, therefore, suggest that we have an install and an periodic charge. Owen On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Jeremy Lumby wrote:
Since all of the MICE expenses are recurring in nature, would it make more sense to have smaller fees, however make them monthly for all members? Something like $25/month for 1 Gig and $100/mo for 10Gig plus the one time cost of optics. If members do not want to take on these fees, they could possibly do some kind of donation of time, such as doing port moves/adds/changes. I know that the labor in lieu of fees could get complicated, and some limits would need to be set (such as if a bunch of people wanted to do it, they would only be able to do so for a limited amount of time to allow others to have a chance as well). I can foresee a time when the recurring funds will need to be built up to purchase additional switches, pay for IP blocks directly from ARIN, and replace failed/old switches/route servers. I know that the donation of space, and power from FWR had a time limit on it, and those recurring costs will be coming up as well. I feel now is the time to plan ahead/save up some extra money so when those donations run out the exchange will not hit a brick wall with members that would be sticker shocked by how much it would take to keep it going. I think a little bit from every member over the years will add up to quite a bit by the time that some major expenses hit the exchange. By that point in time, I think small adjustments if any in the monthly fee would be much easier to swallow for the members. I think that anyone that realizes the value of the exchange would gladly pay to stay connected. I am sure that the recurring fees would never need to be more than the cost of the cross connect which we are already gladly paying for, and the more people that join, the higher the value of the exchange, and the smaller the cost on a per member basis. I do not think that the marketing of the exchange needs to be that it is of little to no cost, I believe it can be marketed as us sharing our knowledge of the benefits of the exchange with potential members, as well as making sure that they realize that the exchange exists.
From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Jay Hanke Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:45 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees
What is the funding model of the exchange now?
I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW)
That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region.
Thanks,
Jay
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I have spent some more time thinking about MICE fees, and have come up with a few more ideas. The more I think about it, I can see how donations to MICE can easily be expected to cover one time hardware costs. However there are recurring costs that I do not foresee donations being able to keep up with for the long term. I estimate that if you did not account for donations towards recurring costs, MICE would have about $9000/year in expenses. This includes space/power/ARIN fees for it's own IP addresses. Based upon the current membership, this would be approx $30 per month per member. I am sure that most members would opt to pay quarterly, or biannually based on the small size of the bill. I am sure that automated electronic invoices could be setup to reduce the administrative billing load. While I do agree that Free is a simple marketing tool, when I have mentioned that MICE is free to some larger ISPs that I do business with, the first thing that I have heard back on several occasions is along the lines of how reliable can it actually be if nothing other than donations is going into maintenance of the exchange. On the other hand I realize that for the small provider, Free can be a huge marketing tool. This leads me to ponder an article I saw on the news a few years back. They were talking about a restaurant that did a social experiment where when the register rang up the total for the food ordered, it was listed as a suggested value. The customer then had the option to pay what they wanted (or not pay at all). The results after several months of operation was that the over payment cancelled out the underpayment, and the restaurant remained in financial good standing. I feel it is very possible that in-between a suggested monthly value of connecting to MICE, along with the traffic graphs to provide a visual value that most members would want to pay on their own, within a month or two, most members will realize the value, and start to contribute. MICE also has the luxury of a couple of years before the recurring expense donations run out, where something like this could be tried out, and any extra could be saved up so that if mandatory fees did need to be assessed in the future, they would not be so shocking to some members right out of the gate. Jeremy Lumby Minnesota VoIP 9217 17th Ave S Suite 216 Bloomington, MN 55425 Main: 612-355-7740 Direct: 612-392-6814 E-Fax: 952-873-7425 jlumby@mnvoip.com ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I like this idea as the best one yet!!! -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:52 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 03:11:00PM -0500, Jeremy Lumby wrote:
I like this idea as the best one yet!!!
I second this emotion. To ruin everyone's afternoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kCPj8 you're welcome... -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau@iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
I like this best-of-both-worlds model. We are a teeny tiny and it was mildly challenging to make the biz case for joining. Now that we are in, the value has been demonstrated to my boss, and if we needed to drop $250/yr on it, no one would sneeze. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: MICE Discuss [mailto:MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] On Behalf Of Nevin Lyne Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:52 PM To: MICE-DISCUSS@LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] MICE Port Fees On the idea of port fees and the idea of free as a marketing tool why not simply combine the two? Outside of the initial optics needed anyone connecting to the exchange gets their first year of port fees (for a single port) free. After that first year if they don't see the value of the exchange (not sure how they could not) then they have had no out of pocket expense. Need a second port? or on your anniversary date there is an annual port fee, paid annually of $250 for GigE and $1500 for 10GE. If there is an estimated ~$10k/yr for stuff needed outside of hardware upgrades, 30 members on GigE would cover $7500 of that... I am an indirect member as I take advantage of MICE via IPHouse, but at those prices I would pay for a port annually I don't even directly use myself. Theses costs are insignificant compared to the value and/or anything else expense wise I can think of off the top of my head towards my operational costs. -- Nevin Lyne -- Founder / Director of Technology -- EngineHosting.com -- 888-576-HOST or 612-234-8964 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
Well, I haven't had a chance to pay them yet, but I will. :) I’ve been at NANOG+ARIN meeting in Philadelphia. Best, -M< On 10/12/11 4:44 PM, "Jay Hanke" <jayhanke@MANKATONETWORKS.NET> wrote: What is the funding model of the exchange now? I go around and beg for donations whenever something pops up. (Thanks again for the annual ARIN fees BTW) That was fine when it was a couple of ISPs and a switch but the exchange is quickly becoming a critical piece of infrastructure for the region. Thanks, Jay ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1 ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
On 10/12/2011 03:30 PM, Jay Hanke wrote:
I'd like to hear discussion on charging initial and upgrade one time fees to MICE members needing additional or new ports on the main switch.
Perhaps something like: 1G $250 (+optic) 10G $1500 (+optic)
We would use the money to operate the exchange.
MICE is still a very small exchange. I am concerned that fees may discourage new members. I think that it is easy to encourage people to join when it is free. When it costs money things get harder. When it costs money on a recurring basis, it gets even harder still. Small one-time fees don't seem unreasonable to me. Have we ever had problems getting donations? Are we trying to fix something that isn't broken. The end result could be that we end up with fewer members which results in less value for everybody. Steve ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the MICE-DISCUSS list, click the following link: http://lists.iphouse.net/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=MICE-DISCUSS&A=1
+1 Never under-estimate the power of free. "Billing" has it's own overhead, which is probably more trouble than it's worth for small, frequent amounts. ~Matthew On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Steve Howard wrote:
MICE is still a very small exchange. I am concerned that fees may discourage new members.
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participants (12)
-
Eric Crist -
Hannigan, Martin -
Jay Hanke -
Jeremy Lumby -
Matthew Beckwell -
Mike Horwath -
Nevin Lyne -
Owen DeLong -
Reid Fishler -
Richard Laager -
Ryan Goldberg -
Steve Howard