- mice-discuss - lists.micemn.net

Passive BFD support on Route-Server #1
by Doug McIntyre Jan. 1, 2018

Jan. 1, 2018

Just to close this project out, I'll set a schedule to get this done. On Monday, 12/11/2017 at 12:30AM, I'll turn on passive BFD on the MICE route server #1 (206.108.255.1/ 2001:504:27::d1af:0:1) for all connections. In our testing, we've seen passive listening does pretty much what everybody expects, if you want to talk BFD, it is ready to go for you off the bat, if you don't want to do it, then nothing breaks. This will be the standard moving forward, and has been testing for sometime for 17 participants already (5 active, 12 not actively partipatching). If you don't want even passive BFD enabled for your route-server connection, let me know and I can specificly configure you out of passive participation. But we have had zero problems or comments on the dozen that are in now. If it all goes well, I'll do the same on Route server #2 (206.108.255.2/2001:504:27::d1af:0:2) by the end of the year. -- Doug McIntyre <merlyn(a)iphouse.net> ~.~ ipHouse ~.~ Network Engineer/Provisioning/Jack of all Trades

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Fwd: [routing-wg] a new source for authoritative routing data: ARIN WHOIS
by David Farmer Dec. 30, 2017

Dec. 30, 2017

FYI, A very interesting development in light of our discussions about doing route filtering at MICE. With this development I enthusiastically support moving forward with route filtering because it provides an easy answer to Richards question about which IRR to use, you don't have to use any of them you can do it all in ARIN ONLINE. Thanks. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Job Snijders <job(a)ntt.net> Date: Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 4:37 PM Subject: [routing-wg] a new source for authoritative routing data: ARIN WHOIS To: routing-wg(a)ripe.net Dear RIPE WG, I'm sharing a copy of what I sent to NANOG. This is specifically of interest to networks and route server operators that have customers who also operate in the ARIN region. In the RIPE region we've always had the convenience that the "WHOIS" ('inetnum') and "IRR" ('route/route6') components of the database were interleaved. Only the IP block's owner can create or authorise others regarding creation of route-objects. This coupling of WHOIS and IRR doesn't exist at rr.arin.net vs whois.arin.net - so I consider the following a significant improvement. Kind regards, Job ----- Forwarded message from Job Snijders <job(a)ntt.net> ----- Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 22:18:20 +0000 From: Job Snijders <job(a)ntt.net> To: nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: a new source for authoritative routing data: ARIN WHOIS Dear NANOG, I'd like to share an update on some routing security activities that ARIN, NTT Communications, YYCIX (Calgary Internet Exchange), the NLNOG Foundation, and the arouteserver project have been collaborating on. Quite some puzzles pieces were brought together! :) Traditionally, there are two commonly-used methods to signal to your peers or upstream providers what Origin ASN(s) are allowed to originate a given IP prefix. As an operator, you can either create a "route object" in the IRR, or you can compose a Letter Of Agency (LOA) and send that to your upstream providerfor manual verification. When it comes to manual verification of routing data (such a LOA), one of the big questions is "what data source is actually authoritative for the verification?". In the ARIN registry the so-called "OriginAS" attribute can be used for this purpose. The OriginAS attribute can only be set or modified by authorized accounts (such as the holder of the IP space). This makes the OriginAS attribute a very reliable source of truth! ARIN shared some notes on LOAs & OriginAS in the following article: https://teamarin.net/2016/07/07/origin-as-an-easier-way-to-v alidate-letters-of-authority/ That teamarin posting got me thinking: clearly there is a lot of valuable routing information in the ARIN WHOIS registry. What if we make the process such that you don't have to email in a LOA, and, have the recipient verify it against against the web interface output (which you updated before sending in the LOA). What if the prefix-filter generation software could just programmatically fetch all (CIDR, OriginAS) tuples from the ARIN WHOIS registry and load that into the list of prefixes a customer is allowed to announce. Just like we do with IRR objects! A few weeks ago I approached John Curran from ARIN asking whether we could work out a mechanism to somehow obtain a computer parsable rendering of the CIDR/OriginAS data in the ARIN WHOIS registry. The path forward turned out to be an agreement between the NLNOG Foundation and ARIN, which authorises NLNOG to publish a subset of the bulk whois data in the convenient format (JSON) for operational purposes. The ARIN WHOIS (CIDR, OriginAS) tuples can be downloaded in JSON format here: http://irrexplorer.nlnog.net/static/dumps/arin-whois-originas.json.bz2 Because of the JSON dump, the ARIN WHOIS data can now be easily consumed by software programs. For example, the JSON file is now loaded into IRR Explorer as can be seen here: http://irrexplorer.nlnog.net/search/AS22512 You can see the 'arin-whois' column which lists what ASN(s) are authorized to announce the blocks (this, in addition to what is signaled in IRR or RPKI). The novel thing here is that JSON file not only allows you to look up an OriginAS using the IP prefix as a lookup key, but the reverse can now also be done: lookup what IP prefixes an ASN is allowed to originate (based on ARIN WHOIS data). Deployment Experience YYCIX: At this point you may be wondering - what does any of the above have to do with an Internet Exchange in Alberta, Canada (https://www.yycix.ca/) or a python-based IXP Route Server management software from Italian origins (http://arouteserver.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) ? :-) As an experiment to explore real world use of the ARIN WHOIS data and prove its value, I worked with Pier Carlo Chiodi (arouteserver) and Theo de Raadt (YYCIX) to consume the ARIN WHOIS data as an additional source in the prefix filter generation process governing the YYCIX route servers. The YYCIX route servers see roughly 80,000 prefixes. The results are fantastic: ~ 1,700 IPv4 prefixes that were previously rejected by the YYCIX route servers (because no IRR route object exists), are now accepted because those announcements can be verified against data from ARIN's WHOIS registry. This resolved roughly 23% of invalid path announcements sent to the YYCIX route servers. Deployment Experience NTT: Based on the above positive results, starting today, NTT is also accepting ARIN WHOIS OriginAS information in conjunction with IRR route objects. Our implementation fetches the ARIN WHOIS data, transforms it into RPSL format, and imports it into our IRRd instance at rr.ntt.net as IRR objects. This way we don't need to update our toolchain to make use of this new data source. An example is here: job@vurt:~$ whois -h rr.ntt.net -- "-sARIN-WHOIS 204.209.252.0/23" route: 204.209.252.0/23 descr: NET-204-209-252-0-1 origin: AS22512 remarks: This route object represents authoritative data retrieved from ARIN's WHOIS service. remarks: The original data can be found here: https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-204-209-252-0-1 remarks: This route object is the result of an automated WHOIS-to-IRR conversion process. mnt-by: MAINT-JOB changed: job(a)ntt.net 20090220 source: ARIN-WHOIS NTT also observed a substantial number (similar to YYCIX) of BGP announcements from its customers that were previously rejected because of the lack of an IRR object, but now are validated via ARIN WHOIS. Conclusion: It is great to be able to offer network operators a choice: either register your BGP announcements as route objects in RPSL format in IRR, or use the ARIN WHOIS web interface, (or both) - either way, as IP transit carrier, we can now pick up your attestations in an automated fashion. This which improves accuracy and reduces red tape! :) Hopefully more carriers and IXPs will embrace the ARIN WHOIS data source in their automation toolchain. The code & procedures to make use of this source are open. I'm happy to help you both on-list and off-list. Kind regards, Job ----- End forwarded message ----- -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 <(612)%20626-0815> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 <(612)%20812-9952> ===============================================

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Super Bowl Street Closures
by David Farmer Dec. 27, 2017

Dec. 27, 2017

Attached is the street closure map for the Super Bowl 52 around US Bank Stadium and the 511 Building. Most of the closures are for the week before or the weekend of the game itself, but some begin as early as next week and continue more than a week following the game. Particularly of interest, 5th street on the north side of 511 will be closed 1/2 - 2/11. More details are available at; http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/VISITORS/SUPERBOWL/WCMSP-195148 If you are headed to 511 in the next month or so, beware it could be an adventure. Thanks. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================

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Level3/Centurylink Interconnected in Twin Cities
by David Farmer Dec. 19, 2017

Dec. 19, 2017

This is not directly related to MICE, but I suspect it will be of interest to many of you, so I figured I would share it anyway; Within the last week or two it appears that as part of the Level3/CenturyLink merger they have interconnected their two IP networks here in the Twin Cities. That is AS209(Centurylink) and AS3356(Level3) appear to have interconnected a pair of routers here in the Twin Cities. However, the interconnection doesn't seem appear in the BGP routing tables we are receiving as a customer of Level3. From that perspective the closest interconnection appears to be in Chicago like it has always been. However, based on traceroutes there appears to be more specific routes being exchanged here in the Twin Cities that are not being announced to us as BGP customer of Level3. Further, the interconnection doesn't seem to include local Twin Cites BGP customer of Centurylink or any Centurylink outstate Minnesota customers at all, as those destinations seem to route through the Chicago still. So this primarily provides a shortcut from Level3 Twin Cities customers to Centurylink's Twin Cities broadband customers and vice vesra. This has reduced our latency to Twin Cities Centurylink broadband customers; for fiber customers from ~20ms to ~5ms or less, and DSL customers from ~40ms to ~25ms, most of remaining latency being from DSL interleaving. So, if you are a BGP customer of Level3 here in the Twin Cites at least, you may want to ensure that you are routing to Centurylink through Level3, to take advantage of this shortcut. Thanks. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================

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Attribute Length Error today
by Frank Bulk Dec. 15, 2017

Dec. 15, 2017

Anyone else see this today with both MICE route reflectors? Dec 8 13:38:56 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:38:56 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:39:47 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 UP (ESTABLISHED) Dec 8 13:39:47 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:39:49 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 UP (ESTABLISHED) Dec 8 13:39:49 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:41:28 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 UP (ESTABLISHED) Dec 8 13:41:28 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:41:36 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 UP (ESTABLISHED) Dec 8 13:41:36 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 DOWN (Attribute Length Error) Dec 8 13:44:36 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.1 UP (ESTABLISHED) Dec 8 13:45:23 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.2 UP (ESTABLISHED) Frank

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Re: Attribute Length Error today
by Jeremy Lumby Dec. 14, 2017

Dec. 14, 2017

Didn't Akamai stop using the route servers? Therefore it wouldn't really matter. Jeremy LumbyMinnesota VoIP9217 17th Ave SSuite 216Bloomington MN 55425Main 612-355-7740Direct 612-392-6814EFax 952-873-7425jlumby(a)mnvoip.com <div> </div><div> </div><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Richard Laager <rlaager(a)WIKTEL.COM> </div><div>Date: 12/14/17 2:18 PM (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET </div><div>Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Attribute Length Error today </div><div> </div>-------- Original message --------From: Richard Laager <rlaager(a)WIKTEL.COM> Date: 12/14/17 2:18 PM (GMT-06:00) To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] Attribute Length Error today At the last UG, we discussed IRR-based filtering. Does Akamai publish IRR records? -- Richard

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Please Welcome SW MN Broadband to MICE!
by Jason Hanke Dec. 13, 2017

Dec. 13, 2017

Name: Southwest MN Broadband Port: xe-0/0/12 (NP Remote) ASN: 25715 IPv4: 206.108.255.40/24 IPv6: 2001:504:27:0:0:6473::1/64 Peering Contact: support(a)mysmbs.com Route Server: Yes BFD: No Welcome aboard! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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Super Bowl Change Freeze
by Richard Laager Dec. 12, 2017

Dec. 12, 2017

As you have probably heard, the Super Bowl is being held in Minneapolis on February 4. We discussed at UG 26 that it would be a good idea to institute a change freeze for a few days to a week before. If you need to upgrade your port capacity or make other changes at MICE, please plan to have those *complete* by January 26th. If it were me, I wouldn't even cut it that close. -- Richard

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Re: SDN Communications Upgrade
by Jeremy Lumby Dec. 7, 2017

Dec. 7, 2017

Correct Jeremy Lumby Minnesota VoIP 9217 17th Ave S Suite 216 Bloomington MN 55425 Main 612-355-7740 Direct 612-392-6814 EFax 952-873-7425 jlumby(a)mnvoip.com -------- Original message -------- From: Richard Laager <rlaager(a)WIKTEL.COM> Date: 12/7/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00) To: MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET Subject: Re: [MICE-DISCUSS] SDN Communications Upgrade _____ >From : Richard Laager [rlaager(a)WIKTEL.COM] To : MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET [MICE-DISCUSS(a)LISTS.IPHOUSE.NET] Date : Thursday, December 7 2017 12:30:33 On 12/05/2017 03:38 PM, Jason Hanke wrote: > SDN is upgrading their connection to 20g from 10G. > > Please use Ethernet5/5 on the Main Switch to SDN. This will be Po19, I presume? -- Richard

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SDN Communications Upgrade
by Jason Hanke Dec. 7, 2017

Dec. 7, 2017

SDN is upgrading their connection to 20g from 10G. Please use Ethernet5/5 on the Main Switch to SDN. The LOA/CFA has been filed with Cologix. Please provide an Arista compatible SFP+ optic. Thanks! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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MICE UG 26 Meeting
by Richard Laager Dec. 3, 2017

Dec. 3, 2017

The MICE UG 26 meeting will be held this Tuesday (not our typical Wednesday), December 5, 3:00 pm, at the 511 Building Cafeteria, 11th Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN. The agenda and UG 25 minutes are attached. I believe the remote conferencing will be the same as before: 952-562-5400 passcode MICE (6423). -- Richard

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Please Welcome Otter Com to MICE!
by Jason Hanke Nov. 30, 2017

Nov. 30, 2017

Name: Otter Com Inc ASN: 25637 Port: CNS Remote Ten2/3 IPv4: 206.108.255.83 IPv6: 2001:504:27:0:0:6425::1 BFD Support: NO Route Server: NO Peering Contact: noc(a)parkregion.com Please create a PeeringDB.com entry when you connect to the exchange. All members are also strongly encouraged to join the MICE-DISCUS mailing list. Welcome Aboard! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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HE 100G Upgrade
by Jason Hanke Nov. 30, 2017

Nov. 30, 2017

Hurricane Electric is upgrading their MICE connection to 100g Ethernet3/5/1 (Main Switch) -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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UG 26 - Call for Agenda
by Richard Laager Nov. 27, 2017

Nov. 27, 2017

Reminder: UG 26 is December 5, 3:00pm, at the 511 Building Cafeteria If you have agenda items for the upcoming UG 26, please send them to me. -- Richard

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Cacti Graphing problem
by David Farmer Nov. 14, 2017

Nov. 14, 2017

Our graph on cacti I being cut off, see the following, we moved from a 30G lag to a 100G a few week ago and today are significantly exceeding 30G for the first time. Thanks [image: Inline image 1] -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================

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Looks like Yahoo had blip
by Frank Bulk Nov. 11, 2017

Nov. 11, 2017

[cid:image001.png@01D35B11.0E5E7780] Nov 11 17:00:50 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.58 DOWN (Hold Timer Expired) Nov 11 17:00:51 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 2001:504:27::2846:0:2 DOWN (Hold Timer Expired) Nov 11 17:00:54 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.59 DOWN (Hold Timer Expired) Nov 11 17:00:55 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 2001:504:27::2846:0:1 DOWN (Hold Timer Expired) Nov 11 17:05:33 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.58 UP (ESTABLISHED) Nov 11 17:05:34 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 206.108.255.59 UP (ESTABLISHED) Nov 11 17:05:43 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 2001:504:27::2846:0:2 UP (ESTABLISHED) Nov 11 17:05:43 192.168.0.85 BGP: Peer 2001:504:27::2846:0:1 UP (ESTABLISHED)

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Looking glass
by Frank Bulk Nov. 11, 2017

Nov. 11, 2017

Is the MICE Looking Glass down? When I telnet or SSH to it, I get no prompt. Kind regards, Frank

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MICE UG 25 Meeting
by Richard Laager Nov. 1, 2017

Nov. 1, 2017

The MICE UG 25 meeting will be held tomorrow September 27, 3:00 pm, at the 511 Building Cafeteria, 11th Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN. The agenda and UG 24 minutes are attached. I have attached the Articles of Incorporation amendment that we discussed a bit last time. It will be up to the membership whether we vote on this at this meeting, or next time. I believe the remote conferencing will be the same as before: 952-562-5400 passcode MICE (6423). -- Richard

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Graph Updates
by anthonyanderberg＠nu-telecom.net Oct. 30, 2017

Oct. 30, 2017

I've been watching the Aggregate Ingress/Egress graph values diverge with increasing discomfort and finally had a couple free hours to look into it yesterday and found the combination of the last round of CDN LAG upgrades and cruft left over from migrating from the old Juniper core was causing the Ingress values to skew high. In the end it was easier to just create a new Aggregate graph so I've done that and will remove the old graph once the web site is updated: http://micelg.usinternet.com/export/graph_1430.html I also took the time to dig into the IP4/6 Peer/Prefix graphs and think I've got them (mostly) fixed now too, they're under the "Route Server" menu item in Cacti. Thanks for everyone's suggestions on that topic. As always let me know if anything seems wrong or silly. Cheers, anthony Anthony Anderberg Sr. Systems Analyst [NUtel_email_logo_1] 320-234-5239 anthonyanderberg(a)nu-telecom.net<mailto:anthonyanderberg@nu-telecom.net> www.nutelecom.net<http://www.nutelecom.net>

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Multi-IX Traffic Management?
by Matthew Beckwell Oct. 30, 2017

Oct. 30, 2017

For my own curiosity: I've seen quite a few networks in the last year or so connecting themselves to other out-of-market IX's (I presume getting some cheap wavelengths and bringing it back to Minnesota). A couple of questions for those of you that are doing this: 1. I'm assuming this is enabling you to accommodate requirements from other networks that require peering at multiple locations, even though technically your network doesn't really extend that far (or maybe it's something else?). 2. How are folks monitoring, managing, or manipulating this out-of-market traffic? (Using BGP MED, Prepending, Localpref, or some other mechanism to "prefer" your traffic enter and exit closer to where you really are?) I've seen some funny business with these kinds of network arrangements. Google DNS responses coming from SIX......CloudFlare cache response coming from Omaha IX. It seems like it's "the Chicago problem" (that MICE was founded to avoid) all over again-- except this time around we're doing it with private links all over the country instead of public transit? Just curious what people have found to be best practices with this type of arrangement. ~Matthew

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Please Welcome Omni-Tech to MICE!
by Jason Hanke Oct. 27, 2017

Oct. 27, 2017

Company Name : Omni-Tech Inc. ASN: 54821 IPv4: 206.108.255.90/24 IPv6: 2001:504:27:0:0:d625::1/64 Port: Neutral Path Remote port ge-0/0/11 BFD Support: NO Route Servers: YES Peering Contact email: peering(a)omni-tech.net Welcome Aboard! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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2018 Fees Update?
by Jason Hanke Oct. 26, 2017

Oct. 26, 2017

Has the board decided on 2018 fees? -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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Please Welcome MN Wifi to MICE!
by Jason Hanke Oct. 25, 2017

Oct. 25, 2017

Company Name: Minnesota WiFi ASN: 393455 IPv4: 206.108.255.89/24 IPv6: 2001:504:27:0:6:00ef::1/64 Peering Contact email: darin.steffl(a)mnwifi.com Billing Email Address: darin.steffl(a)mnwifi.com Billing Postal Address: PO Box 81, Kasson, MN 55944 BFD Support (y/N) do you support BFD on your sessions? NO Route Server Support (Y/n) do you want to use the MICE route servers? YES Connecting via MN VoIP Remote Switch. Please update your PeeringDB connection as soon as your port is ready. Welcome Aboard! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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MICE Pull up Display
by Jason Hanke Oct. 16, 2017

Oct. 16, 2017

Does anyone know where the MICE pull up display is? -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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Please Welcome Country Wireless to MICE
by Jason Hanke Oct. 11, 2017

Oct. 11, 2017

Company Name: Country Wireless ASN: 16616 IPv4: 206.108.255.88/24 <http://206.108.255.28/24> IPv6: 2001:504:27:0:0:1f9f::1/64 Route Server Connection (yes/no): yes BFD Support (yes/no): No Peering Contact Email address: support(a)countrywireless.com Remote port assignment number: Main Switch Ethernet 5/16 Welcome Aboard! -- Jay Hanke CTO Neutral Path Communications 3 Civic Center Plaza, Suite 204 Mankato, MN 56001 (507) 327-2398 mobile jayhanke(a)neutralpath.net www.neutralpath.net

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